Ian Elson Guitars - AVOID!!

Teetonetal

Just wondering but why on earth would you recommend someone to buy a handmade guitar from a builder when you have no direct experience of their work? As bad as the build is, I don't think you did your client any favours either.

poopot

brownovich said:

This isn’t really about not charging enough for a custom instrument, it’s about someone who isn’t competent to consistently build guitars and has a history of misrepresentation and dishonesty that’s ended up in court.

He needs to STOP until he’s able to deliver a product that is fit for sale EVERY time.

The point is it costs considerably more money and a lot more than a couple of months to have a decent custom guitar made by a competent builder...

The price he charges should set alarm bells ringing!...  if he’s charging £700 and £500 of that is parts, that to me is a giveaway that he doesn’t know what he’s doing!

if you were having an extension built on your house and three builders quoted you £20k and the forth quoted you £5k what would you think about that forth builder?

His price is a big marker of his skill as a guitar builder... 

as for it’s not down to the consumer to research... that’s not something I agree with at all... I’ve seen Danielsguitars being built first hand, I’ve even sprayed up a few of them, I’ve played all of them (nearly) I know how good they are... I’ve played a few IvisonGuitars and know the quality there... I’ve not had my hands on FelineGuitars stuff yet... and here’s the point, if I was looking to buy one I’d make damn sure I tried a couple out or at least spoken to a few owners before I commissioned a build...that makes sense no? I know Jon would expect that from his customers!... as would Darren and Neil, as would ANY decent builder!!!!

why would you just hand over your money to someone without doing at least a small bit of research into them and their product? 

Fact is people have seen this blokes guitars (which look ok in photos), seen the price and assumed they will get a decent instrument because at £700 it’s more expensive than some mass built guitars so it must be better!... a little bit of due diligence would have shown that his pricing is miles away from a custom build. 

Hopefully @IanElsonGuitar is still reading this thread and will realise his shortcomings... 

brownovich

poopot said:

brownovich said:

This isn’t really about not charging enough for a custom instrument, it’s about someone who isn’t competent to consistently build guitars and has a history of misrepresentation and dishonesty that’s ended up in court.

He needs to STOP until he’s able to deliver a product that is fit for sale EVERY time.

The point is it costs considerably more money and a lot more than a couple of months to have a decent custom guitar made by a competent builder...

The price he charges should set alarm bells ringing!...  if he’s charging £700 and £500 of that is parts, that to me is a giveaway that he doesn’t know what he’s doing!

if you were having an extension built on your house and three builders quoted you £20k and the forth quoted you £5k what would you think about that forth builder?

His price is a big marker of his skill as a guitar builder... 

as for it’s not down to the consumer to research... that’s not something I agree with at all... I’ve seen Danielsguitars being built first hand, I’ve even sprayed up a few of them, I’ve played all of them (nearly) I know how good they are... I’ve played a few IvisonGuitars and know the quality there... I’ve not had my hands on FelineGuitars stuff yet... and here’s the point, if I was looking to buy one I’d make damn sure I tried a couple out or at least spoken to a few owners before I commissioned a build...that makes sense no? I know Jon would expect that from his customers!... as would Darren and Neil, as would ANY decent builder!!!!

why would you just hand over your money to someone without doing at least a small bit of research into them and their product? 

Fact is people have seen this blokes guitars (which look ok in photos), seen the price and assumed they will get a decent instrument because at £700 it’s more expensive than some mass built guitars so it must be better!... a little bit of due diligence would have shown that his pricing is miles away from a custom build. 

Hopefully @IanElsonGuitar is still reading this thread and will realise his shortcomings... 

All true, and all entirely irrelevant. As I’ve said I wouldn’t give this Doyle a penny of my cash as it looks like he’s built the guitar with a cheese grater and a hammer. Every communication I’ve seen tells me that he’s a chancer who doesn’t have a clue what he’s doing, and is quite happy to be dishonest about things to boot.

However, not everyone knows what the costs on a guitar should be and they might be taken in by his garbage claims about how he can build handmade guitars for costs he does. Maybe they believe him? Maybe some consumers assume that he gets a discount on parts for buying in bulk?

But bottom line is he’s advertising a product for a fee that is not fit for purpose. End of.

poopot

brownovich said:

All true, and all entirely irrelevant. As I’ve said I wouldn’t give this Doyle a penny of my cash as it looks like he’s built the guitar with a cheese grater and a hammer. Every communication I’ve seen tells me that he’s a chancer who doesn’t have a clue what he’s doing, and is quite happy to be dishonest about things to boot.

However, not everyone knows what the costs on a guitar should be and they might be taken in by his garbage claims about how he can build handmade guitars for costs he does. Maybe they believe him? Maybe some consumers assume that he gets a discount on parts for buying in bulk?

But bottom line is he’s advertising a product for a fee that is not fit for purpose. End of.

Not really irrelevant is it?

the fact is that that selling a hand built product way below what it should cost shows he doesn’t know what he’s doing...

it’s also not irrelevant that folk didn’t at least try one out before handing over money...

but yes, he need to stop what he’s doing... at the moment all he’s doing is making a wooden display for expensive parts!...

Warblington

Mr Elson appears to be running a lottery for one of his guitars. ( A raffle is considered to be a lottery) That is illegal unless he is registered and the proceeds are for good causes . He calls it a ‘competition’ but there is no skill element involved and no free entries from what I can see so doesn’t fall under the criteria of prize draw. The Gambling Commission warns against participating in illegal lotteries. 

brownovich

poopot said:

His price is a big marker of his skill as a guitar builder... 

as for it’s not down to the consumer to research... that’s not something I agree with at all... I’ve seen Danielsguitars being built first hand, I’ve even sprayed up a few of them, I’ve played all of them (nearly) I know how good they are... I’ve played a few IvisonGuitars and know the quality there... I’ve not had my hands on FelineGuitars stuff yet... and here’s the point, if I was looking to buy one I’d make damn sure I tried a couple out or at least spoken to a few owners before I commissioned a build...that makes sense no? I know Jon would expect that from his customers!... as would Darren and Neil, as would ANY decent builder!!!!

why would you just hand over your money to someone without doing at least a small bit of research into them and their product? 

All great experience but not something that many many players will have. You need to see things from the perspective of someone who may not know anything about the industry, or has been taken in by the claims that you can’t get a good guitar from a major manufacturer (which is obviously horseshit, but if you’re not as aware you might be totally sold on his blurb)

Why would you hand over your money? Because the emphasis is on the seller to make sure their advertising is accurate, not the consumer. 

skullfunkerry

I don't really have much to add to this thread, but the comments about people not knowing what they're buying are definitely plausible: pretty much all of us on here are interested in guitars in one way or another and so we get into all the details, whether that be neck profiles, capacitor values, construction methods (and costs) or whatever. There are plenty of people whose only knowledge of a guitar is "the man in the shop said this would be good, and it's a cool colour". Case in point: I have a friend who's been playing guitar for nearly 50 years, been in bands, recorded... and yet asked me recently what the difference is between a single coil and a humbucker

brownovich

poopot said:

Not really irrelevant is it?

100% irrelevant. Consumer Rights Act 2015 states that goods should be fit for purpose, shouldn’t be faulty or damaged, and must be as advertised.

impmann

skullfunkerry said:

I don't really have much to add to this thread, but the comments about people not knowing what they're buying are definitely plausible: pretty much all of us on here are interested in guitars in one way or another and so we get into all the details, whether that be neck profiles, capacitor values, construction methods (and costs) or whatever. There are plenty of people whose only knowledge of a guitar is "the man in the shop said this would be good, and it's a cool colour". Case in point: I have a friend who's been playing guitar for nearly 50 years, been in bands, recorded... and yet asked me recently what the difference is between a single coil and a humbucker

Reminds me of my favourite Bernard Edwardes quote... when asked what strings he used, he replied "I dunno, what comes on a Musicman?".

Some folks (probably myself included) are too bothered by the minutiae. I have plenty of guitar playing friends who genuinely don't know or care how something is constructed or have any idea about how much a set of pickups costs - and last bought a guitar 25 years ago! So if they were quoted £800 for a guitar to be made for them, they'd probably would not think that was "too cheap". 

And it really isn't up to the consumer to price up how much something cost to assemble to work out if something is 'reasonable'. I think some are approaching this from the wrong angle. If the consumer is promised a product for a given price, its not unreasonable to expect it to be supplied. If it falls short of what has been promised, the consumer is protected under law - and in this case, its pretty clear that the products aren't fit for purpose. Ergo, no element of this can be the consumer's "fault".

Hattigol

Just won one of these guitars in a raffle!

I suppose I perhaps should have been slightly concerned by the fact that the second prize was two of these guitars...

revsorg

A naive buyer might imagine that the builder would source components at significantly lower than retail cost.

poopot

revsorg said:

A naive buyer

Exactly!...

but... this guy is clearly a con artist and needs to be stopped!...

FelineGuitars

impmann said:

So if they were quoted £800 for a guitar to be made for them, they'd probably would not think that was "too cheap". 

And it really isn't up to the consumer to price up how much something cost to assemble to work out if something is 'reasonable'. I think some are approaching this from the wrong angle. If the consumer is promised a product for a given price, its not unreasonable to expect it to be supplied. If it falls short of what has been promised, the consumer is protected under law - and in this case, its pretty clear that the products aren't fit for purpose. Ergo, no element of this can be the consumer's "fault".

You are entirely right.

But what happens to the better informed is that we question something when a deal seems too good to be true.

A guy is selling a Gibson LP Custom for £400 and you question things like:

a) Is it a real one or a chinese knock off? 

b) Is it stolen?

c) is he simply a drug addicted muso in need of a quick fix

Many times when people get conned by a con-man is where their own greed gets the better of them.

They know the value of let's say a latest Sony Playstation and some guy who pulls up in a van says he has one that was a duplicate order on his round and you can have it for £150.

So you hand over the cash and feel all pleased with ourself till you get it home to discover a brick in a box

I have seen bouts of excitement (both on here and on other guitar groups)when a new builder pops up and claims that they will deliver a UK built guitar with posh bits for  a price that isn't well thought out and people get themselves all excited in spite of their inner voice saying too good to be true and a few "wise" individuals explaining why the plan isn't sustainable, who get shot down for being miserable old gits or jaded.

Unfortunately they become caught up in what can be at best called "wishful thinking"  and sadly  events tend to unfold as they have in this sad story with people either out of pocket or disappointed .

poopot

brownovich said:

All great experience but not something that many many players will have. You need to see things from the perspective of someone who may not know anything about the industry, or has been taken in by the claims that you can’t get a good guitar from a major manufacturer (which is obviously horseshit, but if you’re not as aware you might be totally sold on his blurb)

Why would you hand over your money? Because the emphasis is on the seller to make sure their advertising is accurate, not the consumer. 

So your saying that you need “experience” of guitar building to be able to spot when something is too good to be true?

As for seeing things from the perspective of someone who doesn’t know about the industry...
I know fuck all about cement mixers but if I wanted to buy one I would do a bit of research into it... if I came across one advertised at 20% of the cost of the rest I would question as to why it was that cheap!...

Agreed it’s not up to the consumer to price up how much it costs to make a guitar... however... if something is priced at well below what it should be it should set alarm bells ringing!... a little bit of research on the part of the buyers here would have shown that the guy is shady as fuck.

not blaming those that have lost money or gone through grief getting their money back in the slightest... this guy should not have been able to put them in that position... however... had they looked into the cost of commissioning a custom build maybe thay would have been saved the grief they’ve had!

 and maybe if more folk did it this prick wouldn’t be still selling piles of shit wood masquerading as guitars!...


edit... would be good to know why the buyers chose this particular bloke to build them a guitar?

p90fool

It's all very well for a talking shop full of nerds like this one to describe someone buying an 800 quid guitar as naive and/or greedy, but for anyone who started on a £120 Squier it sounds like at lot of money for hopefully a classy guitar, and it should at least work properly. 

I do my homework to a ridiculous degree because it interests me greatly, but I wouldn't dream of victim blaming those who have handed over the best part of a grand and been sent a load of crap. 

Get a grip guys, we're not all founts of technical knowledge. 

danishbacon

If a guy is selling a guitar for £800 - he might have a cheap supply of woods, may have worked out a deal with pup suppliers, may have overstock of parts, may be knowingly making a loss, may be saving on finish with a simpler process, might be getting his mrs to run the bandsaw, etc etc. I don't care. There are a few basics that the guy is getting wrong that even the cheapest instruments get right. It's not because he's charging £800 instead of £1200 or £2000 that he's not getting it right. It's because he does not seem to know how to build an instrument or doesn't care that the instrument plays properly. I seriously doubt that the builder would be turning out a better instrument at a higher price point so the discussion on what to expect is a bit moot. I've played home built instruments that play well and factory made instruments that don't. £800 does not sound implausible for a 'budget' UK build. How much were gordon smith turning out guitars for some years ago?

Bottom line is, if the builder can turn out a better instrument and take criticism on board, they might have a better chance at retaining and winning customers, at whatever price point.

I seem to recall something about a pedal manufacturer some years ago that was widely hyped on social media and the wiring was all bodged and of poor quality components.

@brownovich hit the nail in the head a few posts back.

poopot

danishbacon said:

If a guy is selling a guitar for £800 - he might have a cheap supply of woods, may have worked out a deal with pup suppliers, may have overstock of parts, may be knowingly making a loss, may be saving on finish with a simpler process, might be getting his mrs to run the bandsaw, etc etc. I don't care. There are a few basics that the guy is getting wrong that even the cheapest instruments get right. It's not because he's charging £800 instead of £1200 or £2000 that he's not getting it right. It's because he does not seem to know how to build an instrument or doesn't care that the instrument plays properly. I seriously doubt that the builder would be turning out a better instrument at a higher price point so the discussion on what to expect is a bit moot. I've played home built instruments that play well and factory made instruments that don't. £800 does not sound implausible for a 'budget' UK build. How much were gordon smith turning out guitars for some years ago?

Bottom line is, if the builder can turn out a better instrument and take criticism on board, they might have a better chance at retaining and winning customers, at whatever price point.

I seem to recall something about a pedal manufacturer some years ago that was widely hyped on social media and the wiring was all bodged and of poor quality components.

@brownovich hit the nail in the head a few posts back.

Agreed... the guy has no business building guitars in the first place... he clearly doesn’t know what he’s doing... he clearly couldn’t give a fuck if the guitar plays right or even works at a basic level... he clearly doesn’t give a damn about customer service either...

his “price” is/should have been an indication to everyone of the above!... and you don’t need secret special inside information to realise that either...

hopefully everyone will get their money back and this prick will just disappear before he rips anyone else off... I suspect he won’t tho’ I suspect he’ll carry on churning out shit and selling them to folk who think they are getting a “bit of a deal”...

M1ck

 

WiresDreamDisasters

Thank fuck I'm a lefty!!

poopot

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Thank fuck I'm a lefty!!

He does those... just puts the strings on the other side