Football - Euro 2020 Championship

Legionreturns

@p90fool it's the same when we play Argentina. 

I wouldn't mind, but if the hard of thinking morons that seem to follow England (alongside the vast majority of decent fans) are going to pick countries we've been to war with, they should probably cover more than Btec level one history! There are very few nations we HAVEN'T fought a war with! 

Simonh

One thing that is standing out for me is the amount of theatrics from players that have barely been touched, it is not like they don't know that the original incident is being captured by multiple cameras and will be replayed in slow-mo close up! There was one last night in the Ukraine Sweden game, late in in the Swedish penalty area. he was rolling around kicking his feet like a toddler having a tantrum - embarrassing! 

They ought to be getting some sort of retrospective punishment that would soon stop it.

earwighoney

p90fool said:

EricTheWeary said:

The booing of the German national anthem seemed a bit OTT. 
There must be a few England fans who would take beating and knocking out Germany over winning the competition so may be job done for some. 

Not just a few England fans, it's even been all over Radio 4 for the last two days how much more it matters beating Germany than any other team. 

Every interview with a German pundit was a desperate attempt to draw them into saying that England were more important than any other opponents to them, which is obviously nonsense given their record. They've been in the World Cup Final EIGHT times and won four of them, so they're hardly likely to spend 55 years obsessing over the one against England. 

The non-English among us just don't get it, in fact the only time England ever won anything they beat (West) Germany, so why the hatred?

When Germany won Euro 96 they took out an extremely gracious full page ad in The Times about how football truly came home to England and what a fantastic tournament and hosts England had been.

England's obsession with beating the Germans seems to have nothing to do with football and everything to do with generations of crappy war films, it's borderline racist and embarrassing. 

England outplayed Germany last night and are in the Quarter Finals with a great chance to progress, so what's with the "let's kick the Krauts" nonsense all time? 

Rivalry between neighbouring cities or countries seems natural, but most Germans would be amazed if they knew that the English have picked a fairly distant random European nation as their bête noire. 

I think some of that is going at last, maybe not for fans but for the players.

Jordan Henderson spoke something of this, speaking of Klopp has changed the landscape and I think with German managers/players in England (let's not forget the excellent Daniel Farke) and a few English players doing well in Germany, times have changed for players at least.

I find the tribalism associated with football boring and tiresome, I'd rather just enjoy watching the game itself, and I'm sure many others would as well. 

guitars4you

Looking at the various ex player, overseas pundits on the BBC and ITV and how good their English + intelligence  is - Many of our players could not hold a decent conversation on such a show, in their native language, let alone speaking fluent German on say the equivalent show for German TV

Klinsman was a credit last night to himself, the game and his nation 

thecolourbox

p90fool said:

EricTheWeary said:

The booing of the German national anthem seemed a bit OTT. 
There must be a few England fans who would take beating and knocking out Germany over winning the competition so may be job done for some. 

Not just a few England fans, it's even been all over Radio 4 for the last two days how much more it matters beating Germany than any other team. 

Every interview with a German pundit was a desperate attempt to draw them into saying that England were more important than any other opponents to them, which is obviously nonsense given their record. They've been in the World Cup Final EIGHT times and won four of them, so they're hardly likely to spend 55 years obsessing over the one against England. 

The non-English among us just don't get it, in fact the only time England ever won anything they beat (West) Germany, so why the hatred?

When Germany won Euro 96 they took out an extremely gracious full page ad in The Times about how football truly came home to England and what a fantastic tournament and hosts England had been.

England's obsession with beating the Germans seems to have nothing to do with football and everything to do with generations of crappy war films, it's borderline racist and embarrassing. 

England outplayed Germany last night and are in the Quarter Finals with a great chance to progress, so what's with the "let's kick the Krauts" nonsense all time? 

Rivalry between neighbouring cities or countries seems natural, but most Germans would be amazed if they knew that the English have picked a fairly distant random European nation as their bête noire. 

There is definitely a case of this - loads of older people in my Facebook sphere seem to be equating this victory with Brexit and how we are supposedly now better away from Europe because we scored two goals against Germany. It's bizarre.

It's definitely war related bollocks in my opinion. An easy target for rivalry but as you say it's mostly unrequited anyway. Similarly with Argentina for the same reasons I guess. 

munckee

thecolourbox said:

There is definitely a case of this - loads of older people in my Facebook sphere seem to be equating this victory with Brexit and how we are supposedly now better away from Europe because we scored two goals against Germany. It's bizarre.

It's definitely war related bollocks in my opinion. An easy target for rivalry but as you say it's mostly unrequited anyway. Similarly with Argentina for the same reasons I guess. 

Germany's big rivalry is with Holland from what I understand.  The same way the Scotland game doesn't mean as much to the English as it does the Scottish because we are expected to win it.  For my generation of fan (I'm 46) I don't think it has anything to do with the war it's due to losing the only two semi's we;'d ever seen us play them in (until 2018) to the Germans.

The Argentina dislike goes back to Diego Maradona's hand of god for anyone I know, and I've never heard anyone disagree  his second goal was one of the tournament goals of all time.

p90fool

Well I'm historically (and football-ly) aware enough to know where it all stems from and have watched it grow over my lifetime since the mid-60s, it just strikes me that having a fierce rivalry with someone who isn't even aware of that rivalry is the attitude of a natural born loser.

DefaultM

DefaultM said:

Had a little double on each team in both games to have 2 or more cards. Hope the next game's like the last one.

eeee one card short

TTony

p90fool said:

England's obsession with beating the Germans seems to have nothing to do with football and everything to do with generations of crappy war films, it's borderline racist and embarrassing. 

It could be interpreted in many ways, and many of those interpretations are probably valid.

For the "old timers" there is probably some Fawlty-esque residual feeling but that will be, naturally, dying out as a main reason.

For others, there's the fact that Germany has been a team that England has consistently struggled to beat.    Thus it becomes an obsession just because it's come to be seen as something unachievable.  It also becomes a yardstick for our (apparent) progress - well, if we can finally beat Germany, we've obviously got a better team than in the 2010s, 2000s, 1990s, 1980s (etc).  As if Germany was some unchanging standard.

For another contingent, you'll have the tribal emotions (which tend to drive out rational thought), stirred up by some elements in the press - your "crappy war films" is part of that.

For yet others, it's a useful distraction from more mundane (aka important) things going on in many people's lives today.  Get everyone excited about the football and we can forget government ineptitude and corruption, global pandemics, the state of the economy, et al.


[edit]
And whilst it doesn't justify the England/Germany thing, you could observe that there's a similarly curious aspect to the Scotland/England (or even Wales/England) matches.

p90fool

Indeed @TTony we all need a bit of bread and circuses, even if we're aware enough to know that's what it is.

TTony

earwighoney said:

I find the tribalism associated with football boring and tiresome, I'd rather just enjoy watching the game itself, and I'm sure many others would as well. 

Would football exist without tribalism?

Without the undying and unquestioning support that many fans have for their clubs, could those clubs continue to exist?  

earwighoney

TTony said:

earwighoney said:

I find the tribalism associated with football boring and tiresome, I'd rather just enjoy watching the game itself, and I'm sure many others would as well. 

Would football exist without tribalism?

Without the undying and unquestioning support that many fans have for their clubs, could those clubs continue to exist?  

I'm in agreement, tribalism is a vital of what it is to be a supporter for many, as you can see on this forum and some posters here. There are some positive aspects of football related tribalism of course but I had the unsavoury aspects in mind.

But for others, including myself, when EVERY football related consideration is seen through the perspective of tribalism it gets really tiresome as even though tribalism is a significant part of the game, there is more to the game than just it.

Hattigol

Needs to bring on a holding pl

Teetonetal

The funny thing with international football rivalries, is that quite often it is one way. Germany are aware that the game is important to England, but it's not a big game for them. Their much bigger game is vs The Netherlands.

goldtop

TTony said:

earwighoney said:

I find the tribalism associated with football boring and tiresome, I'd rather just enjoy watching the game itself, and I'm sure many others would as well. 

Would football exist without tribalism?

Without the undying and unquestioning support that many fans have for their clubs, could those clubs continue to exist?  

Dragged along by my BiL in the 1980s, I went to an entire season of home games for my local club (Southend United, then in the 3rd Division). I was the only one who seemed to appreciate the other team when they were outplaying 'us'. Luckily we were in the family bit, not the end terraces, where all of the tough guys went.  The best thing was always hoping that the visiting team would be awesome. But I quickly learned to keep my appreciation for that under wraps - that kind of even-handed support is not what football is about.

These days, it's not tribal, with most players not being local, nor loyal. It's more like Ford-vs-GM, with the faux-tribalism just selling replica shirts by the container-load.

scrumhalf

The Dutch hate the Germans for much the same reason as we do. Death, destruction and WW2.

Things like that leave scars and just because it means less to younger people who are generations away from it doesn't lessen the impact the war had on those involved and their families.

McSwaggerty

scrumhalf said:

The Dutch hate the Germans for much the same reason as we do. Death, destruction and WW2.

Things like that leave scars and just because it means less to younger people who are generations away from it doesn't lessen the impact the war had on those involved and their families.

FFS.

goldtop

scrumhalf said:

The Dutch hate the Germans for much the same reason as we do. Death, destruction and WW2.

Speak for yourself. I don't hate Germans. 

p90fool

scrumhalf said:

The Dutch hate the Germans for much the same reason as we do. Death, destruction and WW2.

Things like that leave scars and just because it means less to younger people who are generations away from it doesn't lessen the impact the war had on those involved and their families.

I've lived in both countries and this is almost universally bullshit. 

Same for France too, in fact I was present at a very emotional accidental meeting between an elderly neighbour of mine in France and a German tourist of the same age. The French man had been a slave labourer in the same town that the German had been a soldier during the war, he survived but his brother had starved to death in the camp.

There was no hatred whatsoever, just a tearful embrace at what they'd both been through as youngsters and a wonderful drinking session I was honoured to be invited to. 

There are a tiny minority of young thugs who dwell on this stuff in mainland Europe, it's not the pathetic mainstream obsession it is here in the UK.

tony99

Is the chain mail fancy dress top quality banter? Or does donning of it denigrate the memories of those fallen in the crusades?