Circle of fifths clock

viz

Oh dear

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184482452002?hash=item2af402d222:g:k0sAAOSwIuNedn8t

Springywheel

Good idea that. I wouldn’t pay 35 quid for one though. 

viz

Especially one where the black piano keys aren’t correct at 3 o’clock and 9 o’clock, so all the lower notes don’t line up properly with the piano! Well actually they’re all a bit off because the C at the top isn’t aligned with a key, it’s aligned to a gap between keys. 

The big cockups are hidden because she’s holding the clock exactly to cover them up!

https://i.imgur.com/6PzEaz4.jpg

Whistler

D#m and A#m are missing from the inner circle. I am also used to seeing circles of fifths with key signatures or at least an indication of how many sharps and flats each key has.

axisus

eBay? I thought you'd have found that on TikTok

tanihhiavlt

Shirley there was an opportunity to show the number of sharps in each key too..

Personally, I don't get why people don't add a second cycle around the outside offset by a minor or major third - so you can generate all the diatonic chords for a key or add the modes as an arc ... 

what they could do is reflect one hemisphere of the keys - jobs a goodun 

viz

tanihhiavlt said:

Shirley there was an opportunity to show the number of sharps in each key too..

Personally, I don't get why people don't add a second cycle around the outside offset by a minor or major third - so you can generate all the diatonic chords for a key or add the modes as an arc ... 

what they could do is reflect one hemisphere of the keys - jobs a goodun 

Can you do a sketch of what you mean?

tanihhiavlt

Like this

viz

tanihhiavlt said:

Like this

Haha that looks awesome - no I meant, your suggestion about the 2nd corcle round the outside. 

Here’s a Cof5 From my book with the piano properly drawn…

https://i.imgur.com/MsZBv1G.jpg

tanihhiavlt

here -I've put a fycle of siths inside a colin firth of forths... offset by a minor third... now I can create diatonic chords 
I've also shown the key signatiures for relative keys all follow on from each other like a long drawn out scream.... aaaaaghhhh



also the outer circle notes can be added to the modes to give the melodic minor modes but I don't know them too good so I don't make jokes about that.

viz

So what does your Eb and Bb actually mean, above your C and your G? They are the minor 3rd of C and G respectively, yes, but how does that help with diatonic chords?

On the standard one like my black one, the 6 keys in a single region (C, F and G, and Am, Dm and Em) are the diatonic chords for C major. 

Sesh

So, a nice ideal but ultimately a bit of a clock up? 

tanihhiavlt

Well, mine isn't written for piano on account of me not playing piano. I know enough to spot two black keys shouldn't be next to two black keys unless there is a third black key in one of the clusters.

The reason for two concentric cycles of fourths is I can spell the notes in any major or minor chord. Also I draw a cycle of fifths by sticking my tongue out a little cos I'm being serious and concentratin'  and drawing a compass to the CAFE, the rest I fill in from memory...

Also C ionian + Eb is melodic minor and the other modes follow suit, C lydian (G) + Bb is  c Simpsons major. 

I'm not saying knowing any of this will make you a better person, but Larry Carlton does a whole alternating major and minor thirds modulation thing and this provides a way of quickly generating it without going cross eyed..

Karate taught me about 25 different ways to turn around... not in one go, and not explicitly but they're their now, moving about the kitchen, staggering to the pub loos, playing football and sparring... I also can see it in other people ... like Elvis he exaggerates it a little but its obvious from his moves

It's just another way of looking at stuff, if you knew it already - what have ya lost? If ya didn't know all of that - win.. if you see something else staring out of the bushes - even better

It also helps match notation to strings a little bit 

viz

Ah, I see, ok you’re putting the middle note of the minor triad in the outer ring, ok, got you now. Sorry I’m slow today!

And what do you mean by noting F as mixo, Bb as dorian, etc?

I’m genuinely interested and trying to understand.  

tanihhiavlt

Thanks Viz - it's easy for me to worry curiosity is a cross examination - but it is really good, given we've established I'm a musical pleb, you're curious about someone else's perspective - so both exploring it together - I'm more likely to learn some new stuff  

Key of F has the same notes as C mixolydian - just a different starting point. Bb major has the same notes as C dorian same caveat.

I used to draw the chords as connecting lines inside the cycle of fifths - hoping to see some patterns that'd tip me off to harmonic extensions or inversions but this seems to work a little better... for extensions at least - if I play the next couple of notes swerving in and out of the cycles as before I get the 9th, 11th, 13th notes - and if I've a bass player I can play B minor over a G bass and it might sound like a Gmaj add 9 .. perhaps 

viz

tanihhiavlt said:

Key of F has the same notes as C mixolydian - just a different starting point. Bb major has the same notes as C dorian same caveat.

I perhaps 

Ahhhh! Ok. Ok, you’re looking at things through the other end of the telescope from how I do, so to speak. I tend to use the C of 5 to understand that F is the Lydian sound with respect to C, cause I think “playing F to F using the same notes as C major would give you F lydian”, whereas you’re saying “playing C to C using the notes of F major gives you C mixolydian”. Got u now. I keep the notes constant and move the tonal centre; you keep the tonal centre constant and change the notes. 

tanihhiavlt

I got into modes via Satriani explaining pitch axis.

Your way sounds instantly applicable to fast chord changes and I am currently shifting all that modal baggage around from change to change, I could preempt changes and bridge changes far better ..