Pentatonic question

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DesWalkerDesWalker Frets: 26

Excluding all other considerations about the chord progression which sounds better over an E7 chord, E Minor or E Major Pentatonic ? Is one objectively better sounding than the other ? 

What about over an E Major triad ?

Thanks for any replies.

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Comments

  • CoffeeAndTVCoffeeAndTV Frets: 433
    B minor over E7 is quite cool too.  I think they all have their place, mix them up. 
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  • sev112sev112 Frets: 2739
    Blues or medieval classical music 

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  • kelpbedskelpbeds Frets: 181
    The only prob with E major pent is that it doesn't contain the b7 which is in the chord. You could also use dominant pentatonic which sounds great 1,2,3,5,b7 (so you are substituting the 6 for the b7 basically) Or you could just add the b7 to the major pentatonic which would give you a Mixolydian scale but without the 4th degree.
    Check out my Blues lessons channel at:  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBTSHf5NqVQDz0LzW2PC1Lw
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  • vizviz Frets: 10644
    edited July 2021
    Different sounds - both work. Is your piece in E, or in A or A minor, or something else?
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • DesWalkerDesWalker Frets: 26

    I have no piece of music in mind, it’s a pure theory question. I understand a lot of theory btw.

    Kelpbeds is asking the sort of questions I’m looking for... 6 vs b7 and indeed 2 and 3 vs b3 and 4.

    Major Pent = 1 2 3 5 6
    Minor Pent = 1 b3 4 5 b7

    How do these two scales compare ? Isn’t the Minor Pent much brighter and is this important ? I’m starting to think it might be ...
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  • vizviz Frets: 10644
    edited July 2021
    DesWalker said:

    I have no piece of music in mind, it’s a pure theory question. I understand a lot of theory btw.



    Ok. So if your E is in Dominant position, you really want to accentuate its 7th, so although E major penta “works”, it’s not very fruitful. So:

    For blues:

    - you could play an em penta because blues is comfortable with major/minor ambiguity. 

    -or bm penta because that gives you the 7,

    -or c#m penta but that’s quite boring as it lacks the 7th again, but it does work. (That’s the same as E major penta)

    - or f#minor penta, but same as c#m penta really in terms of its boringness.  

    - or obvs you could play the relative majors of the above - respectively G penta, E penta, D penta or A penta. All majors, and all with the same pros and cons as their respective minors. 

    For jazz:

    You can play the bm penta / D penta as above, or just to be extra spicy you could play gm pentatonic (or Eb major penta) which takes getting used to but uses notes from the E altered scale. 

    For classical:

    same as blues but not the em penta or G major penta.

    ——————-

    if your E is in Tonic position and you’re playing something like the first chord in Purple Haze or whatever, then em penta or bm penta. 

    ————

    If your E is Subdominant, and the I chord is B - ie the E is the IV chord in a blues, then I’d stick with the bm penta, or maybe flip up to em penta but that can sound a bit clunky following the chord changes in a blues. 


    That is why my question was important, as I’m sure you know, as you understand theory.  The theory is there to explain why and how the music works, in a certain context. Music theory doesn’t work without context. That’s just maths. 

    DesWalker said:

    Isn’t the Minor Pent much brighter

    No it’s less bright. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    DesWalker said:

    ... which sounds better over an E7 chord, E Minor or E Major Pentatonic ? Is one objectively better sounding than the other ?
    Neither. For E7 the better fit is E mixolydian. However I feel that you’re asking the wrong question ...
    DesWalker said:

    I have no piece of music in mind, it’s a pure theory question ...
    ... and that’s the point where it went wrong. The notes you play, their sequence and timing, is about conveying a feeling. Theory is about categorising what’s happened, not about what should have been played. 
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • DesWalkerDesWalker Frets: 26

    I don’t understand how you can say the Minor Pent is less bright than the Major. Just look at the intervals.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10644
    edited July 2021
    DesWalker said:

    I don’t understand how you can say the Minor Pent is less bright than the Major. Just look at the intervals.
    Ok. Maybe we have different ideas of what bright means in musical terms. Nevertheless maybe you found the rest of my post helpful. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    Bright is probably the wrong word
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10644
    edited July 2021
    Roland said:
    Bright is probably the wrong word
    Probably. Though it is quite an accepted and useful. It means things like lifted, raised, sharper, optimistic. Basically words that convey what “major” is about. 

    Whereas darker is associated with lowered, depressed, flatter, sadder, more minor. 

    But these are subjective terms used to describe frequencies, and this stuff is notoriously hard to write about on a forum!

    DesWalker, maybe what’s confusing you is you’re looking at the fretted notes for each scale and seeing that the minor penta has lower notes, like-for-like, than the major penta.

    But as I’m sure you know, those notes shouldn’t be compared like-for-like up the scale ladder. The minor 3rd in minor penta isn’t to be compared to the major 2nd in major penta, it’s to be compared against the major 3rd in major penta. The minor contains notes 1 m3 4 5 m7 8. And the major contains 1 M2 M3 5 M6 8. The minor penta doesn’t even contain a 2nd to be compared against the M2 in major penta. 

    So major penta is brighter, as it contains major intervals not minor intervals. And it fits over the ‘brighter’ major scale, not the minor scale. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • DesWalkerDesWalker Frets: 26

    Major Pent = 1 2 3 5 6
    Minor Pent = 1 b3 4 5 b7

    Three of the Minor Pent’s notes are a semitone brighter than their Major counterparts.

    A related question might be to ask if it is possible to play pure Lydian over a Mixolydian chord progression because it is two steps brighter. Five of the notes will match the chord tones with the other two notes rising above the chord tones. None will sit beneath the chords.

    Will Lydian over Mixolydian chords sound better than Mixolydian over Lydian chords ?


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  • vizviz Frets: 10644
    kelpbeds said:
    The only prob with E major pent is that it doesn't contain the b7 which is in the chord. You could also use dominant pentatonic which sounds great 1,2,3,5,b7 (so you are substituting the 6 for the b7 basically. 

    This is a great scale, it uses the dots on the fretboard, so playing all the dots on the B string gives you E dominant pentatonic. Which is nice. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10644
    edited July 2021
    DesWalker said:

    Major Pent = 1 2 3 5 6
    Minor Pent = 1 b3 4 5 b7

    Three of the Minor Pent’s notes are a semitone brighter than their Major counterparts.

    I think you must have written this without seeing my previous post. Hope that cleared it up for you. 

    Though you know what, brilliant musicians can make all kinds of wonderful music out of the 12 notes, so maybe you can make minor pentatonic sound brighter than major pentatonic - there are many happy minor pieces and many sad major pieces, plus we probably have a different idea of how music theory actually works. No worries, good banter. Happy to continue the chat. 



    DesWalker said:


    A related question might be to ask if it is possible to play pure Lydian over a Mixolydian chord progression because it is two steps brighter. Five of the notes will match the chord tones with the other two notes rising above the chord tones. None will sit beneath the chords.

    Will Lydian over Mixolydian chords sound better than Mixolydian over Lydian chords ?



    Not recommended but for the most serious jazzers! The augmented 4th will not sit well with the perfect 4th. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • DesWalkerDesWalker Frets: 26

    Hi viz,

    Sorry missed your post.

    Of course I agree with you when the full diatonic scales are compared. But we’re comparing Pentatonics and no matter how you cut it Minor Pent is much brighter than Major and I think that is very important. Think about it, or even better play it and listen....

    Des
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  • vizviz Frets: 10644
    DesWalker said:

    Hi viz,

    Sorry missed your post.

    Of course I agree with you when the full diatonic scales are compared. But we’re comparing Pentatonics and no matter how you cut it Minor Pent is much brighter than Major and I think that is very important. Think about it, or even better play it and listen....

    Des
    Ok lol thanks
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • DesWalkerDesWalker Frets: 26

    I totally agree that the Dominant Pent (9th arpeggio) is correct over Dominant chords. It’s got the chord tones and tritone.

    But the Minor Pent is still brighter than the Dominant Pent. Maybe it’s not quite as correct to use the Minor Pent but maybe it’s even better....
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  • DesWalkerDesWalker Frets: 26

    Viz,

    I know you’re a theory nerd. So am I and I’ve been on a mega research binge based around modal brightness ideas applied to pentatonics.

    I strongly believe different types of pentatonic are the key to understanding which scales are correct over diatonic and non-diatonic progressions like the Blues.

    Personally I think a Major Pentatonic over a Dominant chord sounds garbage. The 6 sinks beneath the chord.

    Des
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  • HAL9000HAL9000 Frets: 9551
    edited July 2021
    DesWalker said:

    Major Pent = 1 2 3 5 6
    Minor Pent = 1 b3 4 5 b7

    Three of the Minor Pent’s notes are a semitone brighter than their Major counterparts.

    No they’re not; they’re a semitone higher. Whole different thing.

    As for which pentatonic sounds better over a particular chord - surely better is subjective term. Depends on the context, the relationship between that chord and the key you’re in, what you’re hoping to achieve,  etc. IMHO there is no definitive right answer.
    I play guitar because I enjoy it rather than because I’m any good at it
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  • danowensdanowens Frets: 27
    Over E7? F diminished, surely‽ 
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