e-scooter crash

Reverend

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57908240

Someone hit a 3 year old child and caused life changing injuries.

Thoughts?

digitalscream

A fairly famous YouTuber (Emily Hartridge, I think) was killed a couple of years ago when she was riding one and an under-inflated tyre apparently sent her under the wheels of a lorry.

Yeah...they're pretty dangerous, particularly since there aren't any skill or safety requirements.

Something needs to be done (and enforced), but I'm not convinced it's a top priority at the moment.

octatonic

This was mentioned in the e-bike thread.

Will be the tip of the iceberg- google 'e-scooter injuries singapore' to see what happened there.
Singapore has a small, law abiding population with large pavements and low congestion.
In the UK, especially in London, it will be a disaster.

grungebob

I can’t bring myself to read that article. I hope the child gets all the support and help they deserve and need.

these e scooters and skateboards are heavy fast moving silent dangers. Some of those scooters can travel faster than a moped and we wouldn’t tolerate those on the pavements. 

I don’t know how you’d control the sale but that’s got to be easier than trying to control their use?

ICBM

The situation at present is ridiculous and makes the law an ass, because it's openly flouted. They need to be made legal, because then they can be insured, and more effectively regulated and policed. If they aren't legal to use then the only sensible alternative is to completely ban them from sale.

But it's not actually the technology that's the problem - there's no real difference in outcome here from if the child had been hit by a pushbike.

jonnyburgo

They should have a "Clothesline a scooter scrote" day once a year to thin out the numbers. 

Yorkie

ICBM said:

But it's not actually the technology that's the problem - there's no real difference in outcome here from if the child had been hit by a pushbike.

This is important. The technology itself will be useful or harmful depending on how it's regulated and accommodated into cities. Currently in the UK none of that is happening, so it's a disaster waiting to happen. 

digitalscream

ICBM said:

But it's not actually the technology that's the problem - there's no real difference in outcome here from if the child had been hit by a pushbike.

True, but the difference is in who can use them in a manner which is dangerous. A 10yr old on a pushbike is likely to be going reasonably slowly and could be seen coming with enough time to get out of the way. A 10yr old on an e-scooter can be doing 15-20mph with almost no effort (faster than they'd ever manage on a bike), but also won't have the maturity or reactions to be able to deal with an unexpected situation safely.

Also, it's pretty difficult to get up to that sort of speed on a pushbike while riding on the pavement, but trivial (and quicker) on an e-scooter. I'd argue that it's unlikely this accident would've happened with a bike purely because of this.

There are also significant differences in stability, due to the higher centre of gravity of somebody on an e-scooter, and its smaller wheels, but the shorter wheelbase fools the user into feeling like it's more agile.

They are, inherently, more dangerous in more situations than pushbikes.

Haych

ICBM said:

The situation at present is ridiculous and makes the law an ass, because it's openly flouted. They need to be made legal, because then they can be insured, and more effectively regulated and policed. If they aren't legal to use then the only sensible alternative is to completely ban them from sale.

But it's not actually the technology that's the problem - there's no real difference in outcome here from if the child had been hit by a pushbike.

As someone who used to be an avid cyclist I also strongly support mandatory insurance for pushbikes.

But the whole issue is just the law not keeping up with advancement in transport technology - like you say, make them legal and then create a framework of law to state where and how they can be used, or just ban them altogether.

It makes me feel a bit sick that the lad stopped to say sorry but didn't hand around to take responsibility.  That, and the wording used, suggests the rider wasn't particularly mature in age or mentality, probably a young teen, but I speculate.

merlin

Yorkie said:

Currently in the UK none of that is happening, so it's a disaster waiting to happen. 

It is NOT a disaster waiting to happening. It IS happening. Every day in every city in the UK. Every fucking day I'm in town, some knob-end shows their misguided entitlement and drives one of those things on the pavement, passed me, directly towards me...or others. I often feel like getting in their way/shouting at them. 

Cyclists on the pavements too. If the road is dangerous, or unclear where you should cycle....Then get off and wheel it until safe to get back on. 

No-one in our environment gives a flying fuck anymore. The fact that the person who ran into the toddler stopped to "say sorry" and then fucked off says it all. 

exocet

They are fundamentally unsafe for use on the majority of UK roads. Tiny wheels v pot holes = disaster. Not safe to share the footpaths with pedestrians. I like the concept but as with cycling, we need dedicated infrastructure to support their safe use.

Stratavarious

Every day there will be collisions with bikes, scooters, cars, etc.

Just need no go zones in places like parks... no ridden bikes or scooters, except on bike paths.

WiresDreamDisasters

Do we know the stats on these kinds of accidents happening with an e-scooter versus a bike? How have we managed to go hundreds and hundreds of years without social-wide mania and panic over bikes and without hundreds and thousands of life-changing injuries and deaths?

All I could find was this:
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-9211043/The-road-users-statistically-likely-kill-others.html

Which seems to suggest that cyclists are not a huge concern when it comes to causing deaths. No data on e-scooters though.

crunchman

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Do we know the stats on these kinds of accidents happening with an e-scooter versus a bike? How have we managed to go hundreds and hundreds of years without social-wide mania and panic over bikes and without hundreds and thousands of life-changing injuries and deaths?

All I could find was this:
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-9211043/The-road-users-statistically-likely-kill-others.html

Which seems to suggest that cyclists are not a huge concern when it comes to causing deaths. No data on e-scooters though.

E scooters are more likely to kill the rider most of the time.

Stratavarious

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Do we know the stats on these kinds of accidents happening with an e-scooter versus a bike? How have we managed to go hundreds and hundreds of years without social-wide mania and panic over bikes and without hundreds and thousands of life-changing injuries and deaths?

All I could find was this:
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-9211043/The-road-users-statistically-likely-kill-others.html

Which seems to suggest that cyclists are not a huge concern when it comes to causing deaths. No data on e-scooters though.

It is pretty well accepted that riding a bike on a crowded pavement is a twat thing to do and schools often run bike riding classes covering all the basics.  Suspect you are not comparing like with like.

I don't see kids cycling in a shopping mall.

escooters, ebikes and the like are like motorcycles on those data IMO.

Jimbro66

In the current e-bike thread I posted the following which is similarly relevant to this thread:

The issue seems to be that although most e-scooters are classified as illegal for use on any public land/highways the government is turning a blind eye because they see them as a way of getting people out of cars to help meet their environmental targets. As with much of the changing Covid guidance over the past year, it puts the police in a difficult position. They won't spend time chasing (literally) illegal fast e-scooter riders if they don't have clear government support

octatonic

merlin said:

Yorkie said:

Currently in the UK none of that is happening, so it's a disaster waiting to happen. 

It is NOT a disaster waiting to happening. It IS happening. Every day in every city in the UK. Every fucking day I'm in town, some knob-end shows their misguided entitlement and drives one of those things on the pavement, passed me, directly towards me...or others. I often feel like getting in their way/shouting at them. 

Cyclists on the pavements too. If the road is dangerous, or unclear where you should cycle....Then get off and wheel it until safe to get back on. 

No-one in our environment gives a flying fuck anymore. The fact that the person who ran into the toddler stopped to "say sorry" and then fucked off says it all. 

What I mean by a disaster is when they are legalised and mass adoption occurs.
Then we will see a lot more injuries.

They are a particular problem for blind or vision impaired people.

WiresDreamDisasters

Stratavarious said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Do we know the stats on these kinds of accidents happening with an e-scooter versus a bike? How have we managed to go hundreds and hundreds of years without social-wide mania and panic over bikes and without hundreds and thousands of life-changing injuries and deaths?

All I could find was this:
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-9211043/The-road-users-statistically-likely-kill-others.html

Which seems to suggest that cyclists are not a huge concern when it comes to causing deaths. No data on e-scooters though.

It is pretty well accepted that riding a bike on a crowded pavement is a twat thing to do and schools often run bike riding classes covering all the basics.  Suspect you are not comparing like with like.

I don't see kids cycling in a shopping mall.

How does that in anyway address my question???

digitalscream

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Do we know the stats on these kinds of accidents happening with an e-scooter versus a bike? How have we managed to go hundreds and hundreds of years without social-wide mania and panic over bikes and without hundreds and thousands of life-changing injuries and deaths?

All I could find was this:
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-9211043/The-road-users-statistically-likely-kill-others.html

Which seems to suggest that cyclists are not a huge concern when it comes to causing deaths. No data on e-scooters though.

I don't think use of them is widespread enough to come up with any valid conclusions. Statistics, however, are not the only way to determine safety.

This isn't just about deaths, though - it's about injuries too, as well as the fact that an awful lot of people have absolutely no idea what the law is regarding them:

https://www.intelligenttransport.com/transport-news/94726/surveys-reveal-british-knowledge-and-views-of-e-scooters/

The problem with those laws is that they simply aren't enforced with any kind of regularity or consistency.

Yorkie

merlin said:

Yorkie said:

Currently in the UK none of that is happening, so it's a disaster waiting to happen. 

It is NOT a disaster waiting to happening. It IS happening. Every day in every city in the UK. Every fucking day I'm in town, some knob-end shows their misguided entitlement and drives one of those things on the pavement, passed me, directly towards me...or others. I often feel like getting in their way/shouting at them. 

Cyclists on the pavements too. If the road is dangerous, or unclear where you should cycle....Then get off and wheel it until safe to get back on. 

No-one in our environment gives a flying fuck anymore. The fact that the person who ran into the toddler stopped to "say sorry" and then fucked off says it all. 

I beg to differ. Currently, market penetration is tiny compared to pushbikes. E-scooters for personal use are currently sort-of alegal, while shared-scooter programs are being trialled. But the moment the legal stops are somehow removed, this is going to be the bleeding apocalypse. The current situation is shit, but it's not yet a full-on disaster. It can get orders of magnitude worse. 

Reverend

IAs someone riding one is breaking the law are they liable in the case of an accident?
,I would have though the speeds involved would mean that nearly all accidents would be non-fatal unless they hit cars etc.