e-scooter crash

strtdv

Reverend said:

If someone riding one is breaking the law are they liable in the case of an accident?
,I would have though the speeds involved would mean that nearly all accidents would be non-fatal unless they hit cars etc. 

I suspect that depends on how these end up being viewed legally. They're probably mopeds or motorcycles, so you could end up with a death by dangerous driving charge, alongside driving without tax and insurance, and driving without a licence if you don't have at least a category A2 lisence or L plates up.
If they are deemed not to be riding a motorcycle I suspect they could still be charged with other non-motoring offences.

The law is woefully inadequate for cyclists too, you can get charged with "furious cycling" and there was that highly dubious case where a guy riding a fixie hit someone and was charged (wrongly in my view)

Basically they need to either ban them entirely (and give the police the power to confiscate them on sight), or they need to classify them as a motorcycle in which case they require tax (it will be £0 as there are no tailpipe emissions but it keeps track of the registered owner etc), insurance, and an MOT.

crunchman

hollywoodrox said:

 You’re looking at this from a well off perspective , I could justify spending a couple of hundred on an e scooter and it would get me to the surrounding out of town shops etc or the next towns  without having to pay £5 for the bus . I could not afford to buy or  justify an ebike unless it was about £299 399  they are currently at least £1500 quid  or half second hand i can’t justify spending that  

£1500 is a massive exaggeration.  Halfords have new E bikes at £649.  Probably not very good ones, but a £200 E Scooter won't be very good either.

They aren't cheap, but they are a lot cheaper than a car, and if they could do 20mph, you would get more people out of cars, as a very large number of commutes would become quicker, as well as cheaper, by bike.

If I was in charge, I would remove VAT on bikes to make them cheaper.  In fact, I'd reform the whole VAT system.  Have varying rates for different products depending on how environmentally responsible they are.  For instance, I'd charge 100% VAT on a 2.5 tonne 4 litre Chelsea tractor.  I'd add 25% to any mobile phone that doesn't have a user replaceable battery, or anything that's a single use plastic.

euan

An in addition to that scrap emissions based VED and move to one based on the wet weight of a vehicle. That encourage people back in to suitably sized vehicles and might also encourage the manufacturers to prioritise small more space efficient ones

hollywoodrox

Halfords have a cheaper one at £499 but they’re all assisted not throttle and £499 I would sooner spend on a guitar or amp . I can justify £199 on a scooter and it will fit in my small storage shed still no contest 

strtdv

They're not throttle because those are legally classified as mopeds

crunchman

hollywoodrox said:

Halfords have a cheaper one at £499 but they’re all assisted not throttle and £499 I would sooner spend on a guitar or amp . I can justify £199 on a scooter and it will fit in my small storage shed still no contest 

You need to look at what you are getting for £199.  There may be cheaper places, but Halfords have some at £350 to £400 that only have a range of 12 or 13 miles.  The cheaper ones have even less range than that.

You mentioned above about getting to the next town on it.  I'm not sure that's going to be practical.  If it is practical, then the next town must be within 5 miles, in which case it should be easy on a conventional bike, at an even cheaper cost.

It will also be nicer for the paramedics who won't have to pick you up when you catch your puny 4" front wheel on a pothole and smash your head on the ground.

chillidoggy

E-Scooterists are all cunts. The whole fucking brainless lot of them. And so are the brain-dead morons who let their young kids ride on them. I watched one lad who was about 7 nearly run into a young family a couple of days ago. He had no control, and could have done some serious damage had the mother not turned around just before the impending collision.

As there’s no way on earth plod will ever be able to police their use, in my view they should be scrapped. 

crunchman

Another crash:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/twickenham-escooter-death-man-named-b947264.html

hollywoodrox

crunchman said:

hollywoodrox said:

Halfords have a cheaper one at £499 but they’re all assisted not throttle and £499 I would sooner spend on a guitar or amp . I can justify £199 on a scooter and it will fit in my small storage shed still no contest 

You need to look at what you are getting for £199.  There may be cheaper places, but Halfords have some at £350 to £400 that only have a range of 12 or 13 miles.  The cheaper ones have even less range than that.

You mentioned above about getting to the next town on it.  I'm not sure that's going to be practical.  If it is practical, then the next town must be within 5 miles, in which case it should be easy on a conventional bike, at an even cheaper cost.

It will also be nicer for the paramedics who won't have to pick you up when you catch your puny 4" front wheel on a pothole and smash your head on the ground.

Yes next town less than 5 miles but hilly , 4 inch wheels are a luxury after 5 cm ones on a skate board 

hollywoodrox

crunchman said:

Another crash:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/twickenham-escooter-death-man-named-b947264.html

The thing is , you are looking for them now. Like if you bought a certain type of car ,you would notice them more.  Lots more people are killed and seriously injured by cars every day . Ban them from towns etc 

Haych

hollywoodrox said:

crunchman said:

Another crash:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/twickenham-escooter-death-man-named-b947264.html

The thing is , you are looking for them now. Like if you bought a certain type of car ,you would notice them more.  Lots more people are killed and seriously injured by cars every day . Ban them from towns etc 

There are many, many times the number of cars than e-scooters.  If the numbers were equivalent the accident rate, I reckon, would be far higher than cars.

hollywoodrox

Disability scooter death , one pensioner killed by another on disability scooter.

  https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/cheery-ilkeston-grandfather-unlawfully-killed-3634652

These things are lethal , driven by the elderly ( who knows what they could do with their failing health , heart attack etc while driving ,killing defenceless pedestrians )

disabled, well they are already unfit to walk around town , what underlying conditions might cause them to lose control of the machine , they should surely not be in charge of such a dangerous vehicle on pedestrian paths, 

the fat and obese riders on these are so hopped up on fat salt and sugar surely their judgement is impaired and their reaction times to a pedestrian in their way will be challenged .

see it’s easy to vilify a section of society to enforce ones own beliefs 

and there’s more

https://metro.co.uk/2016/10/02/eight-people-killed-using-mobility-scooters-6165642/

Chris.B

On a trip to Berlin a couple of years ago, there were lots of e-scooters around the city, all being ridden (driven?) on the roads, with no apparent issues for car drivers, cyclists or pedestrians. I didn't see a scooter on the pavement during my 5 days there.

Could it be that all the problems detailed in the previous posts are not down to the e-scooters but the way that British citizens use them?  Are we looking to regulate the vehicle when actually it's the riders that are at fault.

It seems to be another symptom of the UK selfish society; see also, fly tipping, antisocial behaviour and facemask disposal from car windows etc. 

hollywoodrox

Haych said:

hollywoodrox said:

crunchman said:

Another crash:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/twickenham-escooter-death-man-named-b947264.html

The thing is , you are looking for them now. Like if you bought a certain type of car ,you would notice them more.  Lots more people are killed and seriously injured by cars every day . Ban them from towns etc 

There are many, many times the number of cars than e-scooters.  If the numbers were equivalent the accident rate, I reckon, would be far higher than cars.

But there never will be as many as cars , and if there was , cars would be unusable for the amount of scooters ,so the problem would be about the same , but less serious as cars can wipe out lots of people in one go if they go out of control.

we can all find facts to back up outer beliefs , it’s just people are miserable moaning minnies 
a cheap form of transport has been invented enabling many less well off people to be more mobile 
and it’s upsetting all the car loving fogies who can’t understand it, sheesh it’s a wonder we ever progressed . Wee need more young people on electric bikes /scooters one wheel devices etc than buying cars and contributing to the chaos 

crunchman

hollywoodrox said:

crunchman said:

Another crash:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/twickenham-escooter-death-man-named-b947264.html

The thing is , you are looking for them now. Like if you bought a certain type of car ,you would notice them more.  Lots more people are killed and seriously injured by cars every day . Ban them from towns etc 

There have been 2 deaths in London in the last week with this one:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57874409

The number of E scooters on the roads in London is still small compared with bikes, and the number of miles travelled on them relative to bikes is smaller still.  The last two complete years have seen 6 and 7 cycle deaths in London in a whole year, based on far more miles travelled.  We have had 2 E scooter deaths in a week.  More importantly, one of those involved no other vehicle.  Deaths on bikes that don't involve another vehicle are very rare.  Fundamentally, E Scooters are nowhere near as safe as bikes.

They have a role.  For example, if you are getting a train into Paddington or Kings Cross, and you want to do the last mile to your office.  You can't really take your bike on a commuter train.  However, we really need to be encouraging bikes (including E bikes) over scooters.

Whatever policy the government ends up adopting, I will definitely stick to cycling.

Yorkie

Who cares about e-scooters. Bring on the flying cars already! 

[sarcasm]

DefaultM

Reading this thread made youtube think I want an e-scooter. Constant adverts and suggestions. Same a bit ago with the pizza oven thread.

crunchman

DefaultM said:

Reading this thread made youtube think I want an e-scooter. Constant adverts and suggestions. Same a bit ago with the pizza oven thread.

What browser are you using?

Haych

hollywoodrox said:

Haych said:

hollywoodrox said:

crunchman said:

Another crash:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/twickenham-escooter-death-man-named-b947264.html

The thing is , you are looking for them now. Like if you bought a certain type of car ,you would notice them more.  Lots more people are killed and seriously injured by cars every day . Ban them from towns etc 

There are many, many times the number of cars than e-scooters.  If the numbers were equivalent the accident rate, I reckon, would be far higher than cars.

But there never will be as many as cars , and if there was , cars would be unusable for the amount of scooters ,so the problem would be about the same , but less serious as cars can wipe out lots of people in one go if they go out of control.

we can all find facts to back up outer beliefs , it’s just people are miserable moaning minnies 
a cheap form of transport has been invented enabling many less well off people to be more mobile 
and it’s upsetting all the car loving fogies who can’t understand it, sheesh it’s a wonder we ever progressed . Wee need more young people on electric bikes /scooters one wheel devices etc than buying cars and contributing to the chaos 

Why won't there ever be as many as cars?  I don't moan about them, far from it, I do think they're a great idea and they have a potential massive benefit on so many levels and could easily contribute to a package of measures to combat congestion and climate change.

My only sticking point is that they need proper regulation, like cars.  There has to be a framework of governance for them stating how they can be used, where, by whom and under what conditions.  Without that, just letting any old Joe on one is asking for bother, especially as their use rises, and it will do exponentially.

The government can effectively ban their use, as they have done, but people will do what they please - especially young scroats who couldn't give a damn about the law -  and they are doing when it comes to e-scooters.  Sooner or later the government will have to yield and issue some woolly acceptance that doesn't exactly champion their use but doesn't condemn them either.

That worries me unless the legal framework is also issued at the same time, and even if it is you'll still probably have e-scooters weaving around pedestrian traffic and unfortunately there will be more accidents and deaths.

Sesh

One problem is there isn't the infrastructure to give all these different vehicles their own spaces. So we have to share.
Pavements and pedestrian areas should be prioritised for pedestrians but bikes etc should be allowed to use them at slow speeds and under the rule that they must give way to pedestrians. Kids should not cycle on the road without and adult until <insert appropriate age> and have done some sort of cycle training. Helmets should be mandatory.
Cycle lanes should be prioritised for bicycles, and e-scooters using them should give priority to cyclists.
In some cases there should be minimum speed limits for roads. Too slow cyclists/scotterists cause chaos. Cyclists using a road when there is safe well appointed cycle lane running parallel to the road should be made to listen to Cilla Black records.