Truss road adjustment - advice please

Poboy

Hi there,

Wary of being a noob who just piles in and starts asking questions, I have done several searches on this topic in this forum. While several of my initial questions were answered from what I found, it also raised some new ones. I'd be grateful if anyone could shed some light.
First off, what does 'relief' mean? In a non sexual context of course, I'm specifically referring to 'neck relief'. I've seen it mentioned a few times here.
I've made a few assumptions on this, please guide me further if I'm off the mark.
1) Relief is the amount that the neck will pull against the pressure of the strings....
2) "More relief" = Tightening the truss rod = Righty Tighty. (Turn truss in clockwise direction)
3) "Less relief" = Loosening the truss rod = Lefty Wefty (Anti-clockwise)
I have just completed two builds and am trying to set them up properly. One is a strat type and one is a tele type, both have truss rod access at the headstock end. They both have quite a bit of rattle around the 2nd/3rd frets. I've tried raising the action obviously, but I'm having to raise it so high to clear the rattle that the guitar becomes almost unplayable.
I've put a shim under the nut on the tele which has improved things but I'm not convinced that was the right thing to do.
From what I've read on this forum in several threads, I need to loosen the truss rod, if I'm understanding things correctly. Which I'm probably not as I can be a right dimwit sometimes.
As I also read here, I put a capo on the first fret and fretted the last fret. Around the 7/8th fret, it looks like the string is resting directly on top of the frets. 
Are my assumptions correct then? Do I need to loosen? And how will I know when to stop as that has been a problem for me in the past in several areas of my life that we won't go into here. I'm a bit wary of truss rod adjustments as it has always seemed a bit of a 'scary' thing to do, but I figure that these are kit builds, if I really balls it up I can just get a new neck. But hoping to avoid that as I've got some lovely decals on it and I really like the finish and feel on both necks.
Any help/advice will be humbly received and greatly appreciated. Many thanks in advance.

(Edit: And apologies if this is the wrong place to post these types of discussion. As I said, I am a noob here...)

WezV

Other way round.   Relief is the curve of the neck brought on by string tension.    Righty tighty gives less relief as its straightens the neck.  

It does sound like you need to add relief by loosening the rod (lefty loosy)

Have you levelled the frets?

Poboy

Hi Wez, thanks for the rapid response.
I haven't levelled the frets, the neck/fingerboard looks completed to me. I wasn't aware that was something that I would need to do... You reckon that's what it is?

Edit: was looking at the gallery of some of your builds last night. Beautiful work. You're obviously highly skilled in this area and operating on a level way above my pathetic attempts... I would hold any advice from you in very high regard.

ICBM

If the frets are level, then yes the truss rod is too tight and you need to loosen it. Raising the nut or the bridge height is not the solution and will cause other problems.

You're correct that fretting the strings at the first and last frets and looking for a small gap at the 7th/8th frets is the easiest way to assess it - I normally judge it by eye, going for half the G string diameter or a little less. Remember to hold the guitar normally in the playing position, as otherwise the weight of the neck - or of the whole guitar if it's resting on the headstock - will alter the apparent relief.

You can assess the nut height in a similar way - simply fret each string at the third fret (so it's also resting on the second) and look at the gap between the string and the first fret. It should be tiny - between about a tenth and a quarter of the string diameter - Rizla-paper thickness on the plain strings.

Bridge height can be assessed just with your fingers and ears - play a note near the top of the neck, around the 15th fret or so, and bend it up a tone while picking quite hard. If it chokes out the bridge is too low. If it doesn't, you can lower it.

Sometimes it can be a bit of a juggle to get the relief and the bridge height to work right together, but basically if it's rattling in the lower positions then you need more relief, if it's choking at the top of the neck you need more bridge height, and if it's too hard to play in the middle of the neck then you may need less relief *and* the bridge a bit higher - which is a bit counterintuitive. Nut height is more or less a fixed thing and doesn't need altering once set right.

Poboy

Thanks a lot man. That is all great stuff. Exactly what I was looking for.
Just loosened the truss rod a bit and can immediately see/feel/hear an improvement..... I'm tempted to keep loosening it though....
I haven't set the intonation yet either, that's going to be another bag of questions. Should I do that before or after all this truss rod/nut/bridge height stuff?

Edit: Jut thought about that for a few seconds and quickly realized, that it should be done after obviously.

Blaendulais

ICBM said:

If the frets are level, then yes the truss rod is too tight and you need to loosen it. Raising the nut or the bridge height is not the solution and will cause other problems.

You're correct that fretting the strings at the first and last frets and looking for a small gap at the 7th/8th frets is the easiest way to assess it - I normally judge it by eye, going for half the G string diameter or a little less. Remember to hold the guitar normally in the playing position, as otherwise the weight of the neck - or of the whole guitar if it's resting on the headstock - will alter the apparent relief.

You can assess the nut height in a similar way - simply fret each string at the third fret (so it's also resting on the second) and look at the gap between the string and the first fret. It should be tiny - between about a tenth and a quarter of the string diameter - Rizla-paper thickness on the plain strings.

Bridge height can be assessed just with your fingers and ears - play a note near the top of the neck, around the 15th fret or so, and bend it up a tone while picking quite hard. If it chokes out the bridge is too low. If it doesn't, you can lower it.

Sometimes it can be a bit of a juggle to get the relief and the bridge height to work right together, but basically if it's rattling in the lower positions then you need more relief, if it's choking at the top of the neck you need more bridge height, and if it's too hard to play in the middle of the neck then you may need less relief *and* the bridge a bit higher - which is a bit counterintuitive. Nut height is more or less a fixed thing and doesn't need altering once set right.

One day @ICBM i will collate all your advice on here and publish it! 

ICBM

Poboy said:

I haven't set the intonation yet either, that's going to be another bag of questions. Should I do that before or after all this truss rod/nut/bridge height stuff?

Last. I do it in this order...

Nut height (because it's independent of all the others)

Relief

Bridge height

(Repeat relief and bridge height if necessary until right)

Vibrato bridge adjustment if the guitar has one (then check bridge height since it's affected by it on some types of bridge)

Intonation (because it's dependent on all the others)

More or less, anyway! Sometimes a bit more back and forth than that - but not the nut, that's always first.

Blaendulais said:

One day @ICBM i will collate all your advice on here and publish it! 

It would be nice if someone did . Some of it is repeatable and easily publishable - although mostly not original. Some of it is more case-by-case, which is why I've never tried to...

elstoof

Relief is because you’re “relieving” tension on the strings by loosening the truss rod. 

If you adjust it and you’re tempted to adjust again - don’t. Wait a day for the wood to settle

Poboy

Once again, thank you. Fiddling with the strat as we speak and I can see huge improvements immediately. This is great. 

Philly_Q

Poboy said:

Just loosened the truss rod a bit and can immediately see/feel/hear an improvement..... I'm tempted to keep loosening it though....

With @ICBM and @WezV on the case you certainly don't need input from me, but I will just add one tiny thing:

Only adjust the truss rod a little at a time - say a quarter turn - then let it settle for a while.  Wood isn't super flexible so it takes a little while to bend into a new shape.  If you loosen too much in one go you may pick up the guitar tomorrow and find you have a lot more relief than you intended!

(Edit:  Oops, I see @elstoof has already added the same thing.)

Poboy

No worries, repeat all you like guys. Sometimes that's the only way to get things into my head.
Thanks very much for all advice so far chaps. It's been a massive help already and greatly appreciated.
Could I be cheeky and ask you lovely people for your recommended methods of intonation setting?
I was always using the tried and trusted 'adjust-it-and-see-what-happens' method. I'm sure there's a more efficient and correct way to do it. (And therefore quicker)

Edit: Power just gone out. More time for guitar fiddling....

elstoof

Intonation is pretty straightforward. Tune the string, then fret the 12th - it should be the same note. If it’s sharp, the string is too short so move the saddle away from the nut. If it’s flat, it’s too long, move it towards the nut. Don’t forget to retune after each adjustment. 

Depending on the bridge, you might have to compromise a bit. Strat or les Pauls you can adjust each string on its own, proper tele saddles with the 3 barrels, you should get them close enough if they’re compensated. LP jr wraptail type things, there’s not a lot you can do but not a lot to get wrong either

HAL9000

elstoof said:

Intonation is pretty straightforward. Tune the string, then fret the 12th - it should be the same note. If it’s sharp, the string is too short so move the saddle away from the nut. If it’s flat, it’s too long, move it towards the nut. Don’t forget to retune after each adjustment. 

Depending on the bridge, you might have to compromise a bit. Strat or les Pauls you can adjust each string on its own, proper tele saddles with the 3 barrels, you should get them close enough if they’re compensated. LP jr wraptail type things, there’s not a lot you can do but not a lot to get wrong either

I learned the hard way that it pays to slacken the strings off whilst adjusting the bridge saddles, otherwise the downward pressure of the strings can be enough to prevent the saddle from moving and turning the adjustment screws can strip the threads. To be fair it was a cheap guitar and the saddles were probably made from pot metal. Nonetheless I’m never risking it happening to me again.

fretfinder

elstoof said:

Intonation is pretty straightforward. Tune the string, then fret the 12th - it should be the same note. If it’s sharp, the string is too short so move the saddle away from the nut. If it’s flat, it’s too long, move it towards the nut. Don’t forget to retune after each adjustment. 

Depending on the bridge, you might have to compromise a bit. Strat or les Pauls you can adjust each string on its own, proper tele saddles with the 3 barrels, you should get them close enough if they’re compensated. LP jr wraptail type things, there’s not a lot you can do but not a lot to get wrong either

I was told this useful mnemonic by a bass player, go figure! FFF or Fret Flat Forward - if compared with the harmonic the Fretted note is Flat then you move the saddle Forward ie towards the nut.

sinbaadi

I always thought of Relief in its geographical or artistic definition?

Poboy

Trying to post a pic of said guitars here. Can't even do that right... Good lord, I'm such a noob.

http://imgur.com/gallery/Aq7ACPS