EDCAG: more logical than CAGED?

GeordieLaForge

It's just CAGED starting at a different spot, but doesn't it make way more sense to have it start on the E shape so you can tie it together to the pentatonic scales in a neat numerical order?

Seems way more logical to learn it from this perspective:

E/Em shape - 1st position of major/minor pentatonic
D/Dm shape - 2nd position of major/minor pentatonic
etc

Compared to:

C/Cm shape - 3rd position of major/minor pentatonic
A/Am shape - 4th position of major/minor pentatonic

Seems the only reason CAGED is taught over EDCAG is because it has a cooler name.

Philtre

Call it what you like but I think it just over-complicates the basic rule of learning chord shapes and moving them up and down the fretboard. In my day we didn't need acronyms for plain common sense.

yocky

12:10pm - joins
13:01 - declares war on beloved mnemonic device

Punchy opening!

Isn't it just because CAGED is a word and EDCAG isn't?

Caffeine_Vampire

Philtre said:

Call it what you like but I think it just over-complicates the basic rule of learning chord shapes and moving them up and down the fretboard. In my day we didn't need acronyms for plain common sense.

So you learned the AGED system then?

Rocker

Much simpler to learn where all the C, D, E, F, G & A chords (major & minor) can be played on the neck of the guitar. A few of the CAGED chords, mainly the G chord shapes, are more trouble to learn and play than they are worth. IMHO of course. 

wizbit81

Yep, I got told EDCAG in terms of the way the player tends to see it oooh, about 20 years ago at the Guitar Institute, and they had been telling people that since the 80's I think, so yes it's a more player focused way of re-ordering it. More importantly, who cares about the order or about the naming of it in isolation? It's laid out in 12 different positions so arguably you could name it CAGED AGEDC GEDCA etc etc depending on what key you were learning first. Forget the name, it's a tool. It's a bit like asking if we should rename a screwdriver.

viz

CAGED has always seemed to me to be totally counter-intuitive. It’s a very fingers-based way of deiving things, which is obvs fine for most people but it is topsy turvy for me. 

For me the 4 most important basic barre chord shapes are:

E-shaped chord (root off the E string) eg F: 133211

C-shaped chord (1st inv off the E string) eg F: 587565

A-shaped chord (root off the A string) eg Bb: x1333x

G-shaped chord, but it’s not really (1st inv off the A string) eg Bb: x5333x

and their minors of course. 

I call that my ECAG method. 

tanihhiavlt

Hi and welcome

EDCAG or CAGED, is an interesting idea, one thing I don't understand is the phrase "A/Am shape" - it can be both, but not from the same fret, or root note.

I ditched using the string names and started using string numbers R1, R2 etc (root on the 1st string, root on the second string etc) - it works with drop and altered tunings, and is a lot less confusing (E shape of Bb minor of what-now?)

So instead of "A major pentatonic C shape", I'll think: "R5 major pentatonic, fret 10" or "A major pentatonic R5" - I visualise that spot on the fretboard rather than recall the words

Apologies for the lengthy exposition, but it might be needed to explain my quandary with your idea.
"could CAGED or EDCAG reflect whether it's being compared to the major or minor scale shape?"

eg:

"G minor pentatonic R1" is on the 3rd fret.

This one goes with an E minor barre chord on the 3rd fret.

But the same shape and position is called "Bb major pentatonic R4", if the bass player decides to play Bb for a few barres. At that point the shape is the same but the significance of the notes moves. (and so should the white circles but I searched long and hard but couldn't find a suitable image to pinch)

 This one goes with a G major Barre Chord on the 3rd fret.

If I wanted to use that shape as a G major pentatonic shape, I'd move it up to the 12th fret. "G major pentatonic R4".

Basically I use the phrase CAGED to refer to the "R1,R2,R3,R4,R5 system" - because it's a snappier title and doesn't sound like the location of an astro-mech colony in Star Wars (if you're out there Dave Filoni, I've got better ideas for series ;^)

GeordieLaForge

tanihhiavlt said:

Hi and welcome

EDCAG or CAGED, is an interesting idea, one thing I don't understand is the phrase "A/Am shape" - it can be both, but not from the same fret, or root note.

Hello and thanks

This should clear it up:

tanihhiavlt said:

"G minor pentatonic R1" is on the 3rd fret.

This one goes with an E minor barre chord on the 3rd fret.

But the same shape and position is called "Bb major pentatonic R4", if the bass player decides to play Bb for a few barres. At that point the shape is the same but the significance of the notes moves. (and so should the white circles but I searched long and hard but couldn't find a suitable image to pinch)

The root would still be on the 1st string (or what most people would call the 6th) under CAGED/EDCAG, you would just visualise a G major chord shape over the pentatonic scale instead of an Em chord shape.

mrkb

^ I think you’re confusing pattern (a set of intervals across the fretboard) with position (a scale at a particular position).

In your Em G example, the pattern is the same.

tanihhiavlt

well I just "done me a learn" creating inline comments not tried that before. (or deleting quote lines) ... not had need before:

GeordieLaForge said:

This should clear it up:

So that's what I'd call R2 Major Pentatonic and R2 Minor pentatonic shapes. Got it  
(correction - see below: this is R5 Major Pentatonic and R5 Minor Pentatonic )

GeordieLaForge said:

The root would still be on the 1st string (or what most people would call the 6th) 

Now I'm getting paranoid, as a south-paw I've tried playing right handed guitar like Mark Knopfler (pretending not to be a lefty) and Albert King (left handed 'upsidde-down') before committing to pay 25% extra for nearly every new guitar I buy it left me utterly confused. and so I'll need to recheck what string number I mean - I also still redraw all shapes to be left handed ... okay, the rest of the world uses R6 for E shapes... thanks for clearing that up! bigger number, thicker string. (repeats 10 times)

GeordieLaForge said:

under CAGED/EDCAG, you would just visualise a G major chord shape over the pentatonic scale instead of an Em chord shape.

OK, So using the diagrams above - I'm playing over a piece of music, moving from R3 Pentatonic Major on fret 2 (A) - A major  - where I pick the chord tones on the stronger beats by visualizing the G major barre chord played at the 2nd fret - adding the 2nd/9th and 6th/13th notes for colour from the pentatonic. 
The music played by the band shifts to an F# Minor (looking at the diagram R6 pentatonic minor) and without changing position I pick the chord tones from E minor barre chord on the 2nd fret and add the 4th and b7th for colour. 

I think I understand my challenges with it better now (not least those back-to-school-moments!) - this approach gives me a lot assistance in finding the chord tones as the music moves from A major to F# minor.

I could be in 
A major: I -> vi
E major: IV -> ii
D major: V -> iii

and given the Pattern number used - I'm guessing pattern 1 is used for the tonic of the key, so we're in A major/F#minor.

This works nicely for stuff like: | A / / / | F#m / / / | D / / / | E7 / / / | 

Wait a second, Pattern 1 and Pattern 5 are the same voicing in different "forms"? ... and the forms are based on the barre chord superimposed to provide the chord tones.  So what makes it pattern 1 or 5? 

Pattern 1 is the first in the sequence of scales, when the root note is on R6 (major pentatonic for major, minor for minor)
Pattern 5 is the last in the sequence of scales, when the root is on R6

So to find a pattern, I would identify the fret on R6 - which gives pattern #1, then I cycle through the patterns (up or down from there, to where I'm in the register I want) - that'd be a tautology as long as the music doesn't change key. I then superimpose my bar-chords for the current chord-tone over the fretboard map made of pentatonic scales.. it kinda unlocks the neck.

Not clear which chord shape to overlay for D/D# and G/G#  if we stick to pentatonic, I guess we don't need to stick to pentatonic.  

It's a system, I am reasonably sure it's different from CAGED. It's been a while since I opened Fretboard Logic, but I think CAGED works by knowing scale patterns associated with root notes on a given string and knowing the fretboard, (it's called C, but it means the B string - beiged sounds even less cool).

It could be a player can get really fast at swapping out the pattern fretboard maps and Allan Holdsworth the changes with some lovely wide interval sounds... if I were playing over Blue Bossa, Impressions or Fly Me to the Moon - I'd struggle to "reload the map" every few bars, but maybe it's habit. It'd work for something like Impressions but not Giant Steps   

axisus

CAGED, EDCAG, I have no idea what we are talking about.

viz

axisus said:

CAGED, EDCAG, I have no idea what we are talking about.

I love this!

 This is what’s being discussed: this is the normal way of presenting CAGED. Here’s an example, in E major. 

CAGED in E. 1) C-shape:

https://i.imgur.com/EEVYBF7.jpg

CAGED in E. 2) A-shape:

https://i.imgur.com/qphoOQm.jpg

CAGED in E. 3) G-shape:

https://i.imgur.com/8L03ZPC.jpg

CAGED in E. 4) E-shape:

https://i.imgur.com/Myxrv9J.jpg

CAGED in E. 5) D-shape:

https://i.imgur.com/mDvGy9H.jpg

Our chap is saying why not start on the E shape, seeing is that’s the first chord everyone learns. So it would be:

EDCAG in E. 1) E-shape:

https://i.imgur.com/KKMrK1V.jpg

EDCAG in E. 2) D-shape:

https://i.imgur.com/5NOBJ55.jpg

EDCAG in E. 3) C-shape:

https://i.imgur.com/EEVYBF7.jpg

EDCAG in E. 4) A-shape:

https://i.imgur.com/yU10Rks.jpg

EDCAG in E. 5) G-shape:

https://i.imgur.com/HqenLXc.jpg

axisus

@viz er ..... still don't get what it's about. Chord shapes?

I'm such a thicko with any kind of theory

viz

Yep, chord shapes. Different ways of playing a chord up the fretboard. You can play a chord in many ways, and each way has a name. That name is related to its shape. 

So, considering the key of F, for example. And using EDCAG.

The first in the sequence is an E-shape. An E-shape chord looks like an open E chord (022100). And if you wanted to play F, using an E shape chord, you'd do it from the first fret. 133211. 

The 4th in the sequence is an A-shape. An A-shape chord looks like an open A chord (x02220). If you want to play F using an A shape chord, you go to the 8th fret and play x 8 10 10 10 8

What EDCAG (or CAGED) does is simply remind you of the order of shapes, E shape, D shape, C shape, A shape, G shape, AS YOU GO UP THE FRETBORD.

Sod it, here's a video:

 https://youtu.be/QDq0CxgNxQU

EricTheWeary

I think people do learn it as EDCAG  but call it CAGED because well you would wouldn't you. 

My attempts with it never got all that far but I did an online lesson of CAGED pentatonics which was actually useful. I'd do that again as a refresher. For those of us who like our chord progressions simple but like to noodle up and down the board that's a good approach.

I think one of the problems with CAGED, as I remember it,  is that it has some dead ends. Like learning rules for grammar and then having to learn the exceptions. There are shapes and chord shapes that most people would never use that the system creates. 

viz

EricTheWeary said:

I think people do learn it as EDCAG  but call it CAGED because well you would wouldn't you. 

My attempts with it never got all that far but I did an online lesson of CAGED pentatonics which was actually useful. I'd do that again as a refresher. For those of us who like our chord progressions simple but like to noodle up and down the board that's a good approach.

I think one of the problems with CAGED, as I remember it,  is that it has some dead ends. Like learning rules for grammar and then having to learn the exceptions. There are shapes and chord shapes that most people would never use that the system creates. 

Yup, I've never knowingly used the D shape. though maybe I should.

I use the full C shape and a partial G shape all the time, I find they bring a huge amount to one's ability keep the bass line flowing through inversions.

GeordieLaForge

GeordieLaForge said:

under CAGED/EDCAG, you would just visualise a G major chord shape over the pentatonic scale instead of an Em chord shape.

OK, So using the diagrams above - I'm playing over a piece of music, moving from R3 Pentatonic Major on fret 2 (A) - A major  - where I pick the chord tones on the stronger beats by visualizing the G major barre chord played at the 2nd fret - adding the 2nd/9th and 6th/13th notes for colour from the pentatonic. 
The music played by the band shifts to an F# Minor (looking at the diagram R6 pentatonic minor) and without changing position I pick the chord tones from E minor barre chord on the 2nd fret and add the 4th and b7th for colour. 

I think I understand my challenges with it better now (not least those back-to-school-moments!) - this approach gives me a lot assistance in finding the chord tones as the music moves from A major to F# minor.

I could be in 
A major: I -> vi
E major: IV -> ii
D major: V -> iii

and given the Pattern number used - I'm guessing pattern 1 is used for the tonic of the key, so we're in A major/F#minor.

This works nicely for stuff like: | A / / / | F#m / / / | D / / / | E7 / / / | 

Wait a second, Pattern 1 and Pattern 5 are the same voicing in different "forms"? ... and the forms are based on the barre chord superimposed to provide the chord tones.  So what makes it pattern 1 or 5? 

It's position 1 (not pattern - the poster mrkb above is right) of the minor pentatonic because it starts on the first note of the minor pentatonic scale (which is made up of the intervals R-b4-5-6-b7). It's position 5 of the major pentatonic because it starts on the last note of the major pentatonic scale (the five intervals being R-2-4-5-6). Here's how it all fits together.

If you see things as R6/R5/R4 etc pentatonic, then what happens when you have two pentatonic positions where the root is on the same string?

stratman3142

I just view CAGED as a framework for visualising the fretboard. In fact I mainly just think of the root note (octave) patterns for the C, A, G, E and D shapes, then build the other intervals off those.

The major pentatonic pattern is useful to give instant knowledge of the locations of the 2, 3, 5 and 6 relative to the root notes.
The minor pentatonic is useful to give instant knowledge of the locations of the b3, 4, 5, and b7 relative to the root notes.

Then those framework patterns can be quickly adapted to create any scale or chord.

I'm fine with CAGED because it's a word that can be pronounced. All the shapes are moveable anyway.

tanihhiavlt

GeordieLaForge 

If you see things as R6/R5/R4 etc pentatonic, then what happens when you have two pentatonic positions where the root is on the same string?

If I'm playing over Dm6 to Em7 (G string, 7th fret for Dm R3) I can move the pattern up a tone to the 9th fret and use the same shape or switch pattern to the nearest E around the 7th fret (the A string) R5 minor scale pattern. This helps when the chords are in different keys, say C7+ to Am to A7 (as in fly me to the moon)

Most times, playing with a trio+ (no jam nights or bands atm) I'm thinking in sounds and how to recreate it outside my head, melody lines - built from the smallest pieces of information work for me - intervals, chords, nothing more complex than an arpeggio as I'm following the music - the chords change key a lot... so its like lego - smaller bricks have more uses... and can be recalled quicker for me, but I don't know if my powers of concentration are simplyweaker than other people's  and you guys can keep more information in mind.

viz

tanihhiavlt said:

so its like lego - smaller bricks have more uses...

brilliant