EDCAG: more logical than CAGED?

stratman3142

I think I'm just echoing what's been said in some of the earlier posts, but this summarises how I think.

The diagrams at the end of this post show how I visualise the fretboard using CAGED. The examples are for the key of C (or C minor).

It's a mixture of CAGED and thinking in terms of intervals.

Primarily I see the red (square) root note (octave) patterns for C, A, G, E and D. 

Then I use the major and minor pentatonic patterns to give me an instantaneous visualisation of the intervals relative to the root notes. So that's the R, 2, 3, 5 and 6 for the major pentatonic, and R, b3, 4, 5 and b7 for the minor pentatonic.

I just fill in extra intervals to construct the modes. For example, I add a 4 and 7 to the major pentatonic for the major scale (Ionian). Or as another example, for the Aeolian mode mode, I just add the 2 and b6 to the minor pentatonic.

If I need a Harmonic minor scale, I just bend the minor pentatonic pattern a bit so it's like an Aeolian mode but with a major 7th.

Basic major and minor chords can be constructed as a subset of the major and minor pentatonic patterns, indicated by the root notes and fully black circles. Then I can add intervals and tweak the patterns to create more complicated chords 

It sounds complicated when it's written down, but it makes sense to me

https://i.imgur.com/gH83XEd.png

https://i.imgur.com/avclWwU.png

tanihhiavlt

viz said:

Our chap is saying why not start on the E shape, seeing is that’s the first chord everyone learns. So it would be:

Is that what it is? I thought it was a slightly different system of navigation. It would be so like me to over-complicate something  

you still here @GeordieLaForge ?

Mattharrier

Surely in the key of C, it does start on the C shape (open E, 3rd fret, open A, 3rd fret, open D, 2nd fret, open G, 2nd fret, 1st fret B, 3rd fret, open high E, third fret), doesn't it? And C is, I believe, often the first scale that is taught as there are no sharps and flats.

CAGED would be AGEDC, GEDCA, EDCAG or DCAGE depending on the root note of the scale played, as this would move up the fret board, with the last pattern rotating down to the beginning.

Or have I missed a crucial part of the system?

yocky

Mattharrier said:

Surely in the key of C, it does start on the C shape (open E, 3rd fret, open A, 3rd fret, open D, 2nd fret, open G, 2nd fret, 1st fret B, 3rd fret, open high E, third fret), doesn't it? And C is, I believe, often the first scale that is taught as there are no sharps and flats.

CAGED would be AGEDC, GEDCA, EDCAG or DCAGE depending on the root note of the scale played, as this would move up the fret board, with the last pattern rotating down to the beginning.

Or have I missed a crucial part of the system?

I think the initial complaint was that the C shaped pentatonic box is actually position 3. The E shaped one is position 1 and is normally taught first so why not have EDCAG which starts at box 1 and goes to box 5. 

Of course the solution (as always) is to tune to C standard so that the old E shape becomes a C. CAGED makes more sense and everything sounds better (this possibly only makes sense after a requisite amount of C standard bong smoking).

sev112

Why is E position 1? Who says?  There is a root C major chord at the zero/ 1st fret as we all know - that can be position 1?   as there is an A chord, a G chord and a D chord to.  

It makes no difference and it doesn’t matter. 

The interesting bit that occurs to me from all this debate is why doesn’t F and B have their own chord shapes - poor things 

yocky

sev112 said:

Why is E position 1? Who says?  There is a root C major chord at the zero/ 1st fret as we all know - that can be position 1?   

I dunno who said it initially, but I think that ship has sailed. 

viz

sev112 said:

Why is E position 1? Who says?  There is a root C major chord at the zero/ 1st fret as we all know - that can be position 1?   as there is an A chord, a G chord and a D chord to.  

It makes no difference and it doesn’t matter. 

The interesting bit that occurs to me from all this debate is why doesn’t F and B have their own chord shapes - poor things 

Well I think (and this is contentious) that the guitar is “in E minor” or maybe “in G major”, not in C like the piano is. Because it has an E at the top and an E at the bottom. It’s rooted in E. And of course it has all the notes in the triad, plus the m7. It has a 4th which is odd but not undiatonic. Whereas for C, it has the 3rd top and bottom, the 6th, the 2nd, the 5th and the major 7th, but lacks the root

I’ve never actually learned the guitar (I am really a pianist and.violinist) so I’m sure you’re right, C is the first chord learned, but the C chord is a 1st inversion. 

Anyway, as you say, it matters not. 

stratman3142

viz said:

sev112 said:

Why is E position 1? Who says?  There is a root C major chord at the zero/ 1st fret as we all know - that can be position 1?   as there is an A chord, a G chord and a D chord to.  

It makes no difference and it doesn’t matter...

...Well I think (and this is contentious) that the guitar is “in E minor” or maybe “in G major”, not in C like the piano is. Because it has an E at the top and and E at the bottom...

The first chord in Burt Weedon's 'Play In A Day' is a C. 

Bobby Shaftoe's gone to sea. Silver Buckles on his knee ...
1st song I ever learned.

I rest my case.

viz

stratman3142 said:

viz said:

sev112 said:

Why is E position 1? Who says?  There is a root C major chord at the zero/ 1st fret as we all know - that can be position 1?   as there is an A chord, a G chord and a D chord to.  

It makes no difference and it doesn’t matter...

...Well I think (and this is contentious) that the guitar is “in E minor” or maybe “in G major”, not in C like the piano is. Because it has an E at the top and and E at the bottom...

The first chord in Burt Weedon's 'Play In A Day' is a C. 

Bobby Shaftoe's gone to sea. Silver Buckles on his knee ...
1st song I ever learned.

I rest my case.

Okie doke, you’ve been better taught than I!

(the instrument’s still in E minor )

tanihhiavlt

viz said:

I’ve never actually learned the guitar (I am really a pianist and.violinist) so I’m sure you’re right, C is the first chord learned, but the C chord is a 1st inversion. 

... so arguably the most expressive musical instrument (currently listening to my youngest practising Meditation by Massanet) .. and one of the most widest ranged instruments - written across two staves... naturally used for chordal and melodic lines simulatneously.

... yeah too bad you never officially learned guitar  

It's a good point the barre chords are really sort of inversions - do the chord-shapes with wider intervals ( greater than a 4th ) i.e. E, A, D lend themselves to inversions though? C and G are like piano chords laid out in ascending intervals of a third, the others are stacked fifths or there-abouts - can we think of those in terms of inversions? 

Mattharrier

yocky said:

Mattharrier said:

Surely in the key of C, it does start on the C shape (open E, 3rd fret, open A, 3rd fret, open D, 2nd fret, open G, 2nd fret, 1st fret B, 3rd fret, open high E, third fret), doesn't it? And C is, I believe, often the first scale that is taught as there are no sharps and flats.

CAGED would be AGEDC, GEDCA, EDCAG or DCAGE depending on the root note of the scale played, as this would move up the fret board, with the last pattern rotating down to the beginning.

Or have I missed a crucial part of the system?

I think the initial complaint was that the C shaped pentatonic box is actually position 3. The E shaped one is position 1 and is normally taught first so why not have EDCAG which starts at box 1 and goes to box 5. 

Of course the solution (as always) is to tune to C standard so that the old E shape becomes a C. CAGED makes more sense and everything sounds better (this possibly only makes sense after a requisite amount of C standard bong smoking).

As I understood it, the patterns were named after the shapes of the barre chord shapes contained within them - C pattern has a C chord on A3, D2 and B1, A pattern has an A chord on D, G and B5, G pattern has a G chord on Low E8, A7, B8 and High E8, and so on.

Is that not correct?

Well, it definitely is correct, I've just drawn it all out to double check! But is that not where the pattern names come from?

viz

Yup

viz

tanihhiavlt said:

viz said:

I’ve never actually learned the guitar (I am really a pianist and.violinist) so I’m sure you’re right, C is the first chord learned, but the C chord is a 1st inversion. 

... so arguably the most expressive musical instrument (currently listening to my youngest practising Meditation by Massanet) .. and one of the most widest ranged instruments - written across two staves... naturally used for chordal and melodic lines simulatneously.

... yeah too bad you never officially learned guitar  

It's a good point the barre chords are really sort of inversions - do the chord-shapes with wider intervals ( greater than a 4th ) i.e. E, A, D lend themselves to inversions though? C and G are like piano chords laid out in ascending intervals of a third, the others are stacked fifths or there-abouts - can we think of those in terms of inversions? 

Awesome - Massanet is lovely. And to be frank, us amateur guitarists would do well to take some actual guitar lessons! Well, me, anyway. 

The E shape chord is deffo not possible to invert, unless you include the 2nd inversion that you get when you miss the bottom E string (eg x77655 for an A 2nd inversion) - but I don’t think anyone really does that, do they? 

I quite often put the A-shaped chord in 2nd inversion (eg 225252 for a B7 2nd inversion) but it’s quite rare I guess. 

For the D shaped chord, the only one I see a lot of is D itself - thumb over (so 200232 for a D 1st inversion)

But yep you’re right, it’s the C chord that is most useful as an inversion. I use the full fat version of it a lot - eg 476454 for an E 1st inversion. 

And also the truncated G shape chord, eg x4222x for an A 1st inversion. 

stratman3142

Many years before I heard of CAGED, I'd worked out for myself that there were 5 pentatonic shapes that could be related to moveable barre chords, but I named them starting from F. But the F, Eb, Db, Bb Ab system was never going to be a winner. When I discovered CAGED, I thought that it was an elegant way of dealing with the naming system (and why didn't I think of it). So I adapted my method to fit.

I also learned it (kind of) back-to-front as well. Because I didn't start with the CAGED chords, but with the pentatonic shapes, which I see as 5 contiguous interval patterns covering the entire neck. Then I could see the basic major or minor chords (1, 3, 5 or 1 b3, 5) as a subset within the major or minor pentatonic shapes.

I expect different players each have their own take on the CAGED system. I just use it as a means of orientation on the fretboard, in particular referencing intervals to the root note locations.