Irish Acoustics - Suitable for blues/rock or a one trick pony?

BillDL

@Rebar I commend your desire to buy from "locally" designed and produced guitar makers, but as you will probably already know, many of the companies that started out small and bespoke now have their instruments (or some of their component parts) made "overseas".  Even some of those who don't outsource, but have become bigger over time, have mechanised a lot of their processes.  Does it matter if something is CNCd or thicknessed in a machine rather than being carved with hand tools?  I don't think so, but it's all part of the mystique of being "hand made".  It all depends on how much you can afford to spend or justify, or how unique you want your guitar to be.  If I had the money I would commission a guitar from Scottish-based luthiers like Jimmy Moon in Glasgow, or Taran Guitars of Pittenweem, or Bailey Guitars of Maybole (Mark started working at Patrick Eggle), or Ryan Gibson of Falkirk, or Billy Findlayson (the "tech" at GuitarGuitar, Glasgow), or some of the other fine craftspeople I could visit in person and fine-tune my wood choices, construction methods and dimensions.

Given that I can only afford and financially justify off-the-peg acoustics, the first aspect I would look at is the wood used and the size of the body.  As mentioned by CloudNine, the wood used can have a massive bearing on the sound the guitar creates, but a smaller bodied mahogany body acoustic can sound very different to a larger bodied one.  If anything exemplifies the differences in wood, my two Cordoba Mini guitars do.  One is rosewood bodied and the other is mahogany bodied.  They sound totally different despite being the same dimensions, same soundboard wood and construction, and having the same strings. Upscale that to a full-sized guitar and start changing the body size, the soundboard wood from spruce to cedar or mahogany, and even the bridge wood and you have a huge range of variants that affect the sound - all from off-the-peg guitars.  You really need to go and try out acoustic guitars if you are going to shell out more than about £375 for one.

There is no doubt that most, if not all of us, are primarily guided towards our choices by aesthetics.  I have owned two Seagull acoustic guitars (sub-brand of Godin).  They were both beautiful guitars, but I could never get to like the skinny headstocks and it affected my enjoyment of them and I eventually sold them.  On the other hand, I owned a Takamine that ticked all the boxes aesthetically but I never liked the sound.

My favourite acoustics at the current time are Sigma, and I think they represent just about the best value for my money.  Nothing fancy, just consistantly well made and nice sounding across their range which has grown to include all the common sizes and shapes in different wood choices, but you might not like the man-made fingerboards they use on the lower priced ones.  I do.  The mahogany top ones have a much more mellow and folksy sound than the spruce-topped ones.

Smellyfingers

I've got an Avalon and I am not sure is fair to say that they,or by extension Lowdens are 'one trick ponies'

Having played Martins, Gibsons etc it is true that these more mass produced guitars are easier to play well out of the box or in a brief shop demo.

I find the Avalon is more demanding of strumming technique, and encourages me think about being more careful about the way I hit the strings. Subject to that the sound produced is not inferior the big US brands -just somewhat different.

Also compared with even a USA gibson, the construction quality of Avalon is in a different league.

malcolmkindness

Smellyfingers said:

I've got an Avalon and I am not sure is fair to say that they,or by extension Lowdens are 'one trick ponies'

Having played Martins, Gibsons etc it is true that these more mass produced guitars are easier to play well out of the box or in a brief shop demo.

I find the Avalon is more demanding of strumming technique, and encourages me think about being more careful about the way I hit the strings. Subject to that the sound produced is not inferior the big US brands -just somewhat different.

Also compared with even a USA gibson, the construction quality of Avalon is in a different league.

Modern Avalons are superb guitars, no doubt.

mdfire

If you have the time to wait and want a local guitar, then get one made for you. I had one made last year by Murphy Custom Guitars in Drogheda. Incredible instrument, made exactly the way i wanted and cheaper than a Lowden. I sold my Lowden when i got it. However, I wouldnt agree with all the comments above about Lowdens not being suitable for strumming. Its a different sound to Martins etc. Someone did a comparison between the American and European sound here (Collings v Lowden)

jaymenon

Here's a one take recording in front of a iPhone mic - no processing, pretty raw - may help you see how a Lowden O sounds...?

jaymenon

jaymenon

The second one's with a plectrum

Tannin

I have never played an Irish guitar. We don't see them much in this part of the world (other than those Sheeran things which presumably don't count). There is the odd Lowden sold here and there around the country, but they are rare and expensive. In general, if I wanted an Irish guitar I'd have to import it myself, unseen and unplayed. One of these days I'll get to try one. 

Something I notice (in this thread and others) is a range of views as regards different sounds. (The "Irish sound", the "American sound", and so on.) I'd make three points: first that it is plain ignorant to regard any one of these sound families as "the" sound, with all others counting as some sort of inferior country cousin. I dare say we all have our favourite sound, our "home" sound family that we want to return to again and again, but (making my second point now) the "other" sound families can and should be something we celebrate and enjoy. In music, diversity is life!

In my own little collection, I have four guitars from my "home" sound family, two with the "American sound", and the Thunderhawk which is unique and unclassifiable. Would I like to try out and maybe add an "Irish sound" instrument? Too bloody right I would! (In a little while it will be late enough to play Jaymenon's clips and hear it for myself without waking up the household.)

Last point: musicians (including me) tend to get a bit precious about what you can play on what instrument. Yes, I mostly reach for one type of guitar to play this tune, a different one for that other tune, but it is perfectly possible to play anything on any of them - and it is an unqualified good thing to do so every now and then, it teaches you things about the instrument, about the music you are playing, and above all about your own ability to adapt and find a way to make things work. 

ToneControl

Rebar said:

DavidR said:

I think you have a specific idea of what you mean rebar.

As others have pointed out, 'Irish Guitars' would lump together lots of makers, not least the amazingly innovative Emerald Guitars. 

I'm not sure there's a specific Irish Guitar which is best for playing Irish music. If anything characterises Celtic music it's DADGAD tuning!! That can make it sound a bit 'different' sometimes.

pretty maid milking a cow d b rance results on SoundCloud

You are quite correct @DavidR . When I referred to 'Irish Guitars', I was primarily referring to those which owe their heritage to George Lowden (eg Lowden, Avalon, McIlroy, etc). These have a specific tone and my original query was to gauge whether or not they could lend themselves to music beyond that which could be described as 'Celtic', as some people seem to think that they have harmonics which tend to lead to break up when strummed heavily. However, I think it's best if I just try a few and see how I feel (which is generally true irrespective of whatever type of guitar is under consideration as everyone's experience is different).

I am Irish and am familiar with Irish music. However, it's not really what I'm into and I just wanted to see what owners of Lowden(esque) acoustics thought of how suitable their instruments were for blues, acoustic rock, etc. Thanks too for the heads up on Emerald Guitars. They look interesting, although I have more traditional tastes and therefore feel that they're not for me.

I'm not sure I'd say that lowden-style guitars are unsuitable for strumming. It's all down to your ears and technique.
I have several Avalons, and if anything, preferred the "Irish" style ones for most playing, but eventually realised that the Americana one was clearer sounding for complex classical-style arrangements, although nothing like as much as a Sobell

I think you need to try some different guitars

I'd recommend also trying Bourgeois and Goodall, who I personally believe are far beyond any normal Gibson or Martin
Santa Cruz is also worth trying, but I suspect those would be better for fingerpickers 

ToneControl

btw
Allegedly, Lowden derived his bracing from Fylde in England, who still make small-workshop guitars much cheaper than Lowden. Could be worth trying those too

Smellyfingers

Also generally I think you are going to get a better value per £ with British acoustics than American, because of customs, currency differences, transportation etc.

Also with some builders like Avalon you can go direct- cutting 34% retail mark up.

ToneControl

also worth looking at woods
standard recommendation for flatpick/strumming used to be rosewood and spruce
stiffer spruces can really make a lot of sound when driven with a plectrum - adirondack was the most popular in the past, it is harder to drive this with fingerstyle playing

jaymenon

Raise the action at the saddle and increase the arc relief - and most acoustics will them tolerate heavy strumming. It’s when the strings crash into the frets that you get loss of ‘head room’ so to speak.

going up to 13s helps too

ToneControl

cedar tops are not recommended for strumming hard

TheOtherDennis

Check out some of Richard Thompson's acoustic work. He's played a Lowden for decades. I saw him live at an outdoor venue with him on his own playing his Lowden and he did everything with it - picking, delicate, giving it welly, his usual works, for over 90 minutes in all.

It sounded fabulous.

Granted it's Richard Thompson, so we're not talking just anyone here, but I genuinely believe that if he can give it some hammer and the guitar still sounds fine, I see no reason why other people can't.

I have an Avalon L2-20 that sounds great when I strum it, so it's not just Richard Thompson, or a Lowden.

All I can suggest is you get some in your hands, see how they sound to you and ignore everyone else - they're your fingers and your ears, only you can satisfy them.

ICBM

I’ve always loved Richard Thompson’s playing but never liked his sound, either acoustic or electric. I find his Strat tone actually hard to listen to.

rogd

Surely it depends on who is playing any instrument.