Stage volume - why do sound guys hate it?

JayGee

ICBM said:

Reverend said:

Relying on monitors is all well and good until you realise that means you'll not hear anything if the monitor engineer or set up is shit. 
I've had sound engineers insist I turn down but not put enough guitar in the mix in the monitor to be of any use, even after asking 5 times.

There's also the problem of using controlled feedback - it just doesn't seem to work well through wedge monitors, it's either hard to get any at all, or too difficult to control and tends to go into microphonic feedback and just squeal. You need the amp at least mostly behind you so you and the guitar body are between the speakers and the pickups.

Techs can sometimes get very grumpy about it too…

slacker

Reverend said:

Relying on monitors is all well and good until you realise that means you'll not hear anything if the monitor engineer or set up is shit. 
I've had sound engineers insist I turn down but not put enough guitar in the mix in the monitor to be of any use, even after asking 5 times.

Also, my experience from playing and from tour managing across Europe and the States is a lot engineers are not great. I've seen Chris Fullard  get incredible live mixes so I know you can get a decent mix with crushing on stage amp volumes.

I 've had that and the opposite. I did a gig where the monitor mix was a massive bass guitar sound and the amp barely on. Out front no bass. I happened to be playing in two bands out of five and cranked the amp and told the others to do so. Sound man wasn't happy.

I happened to make conversation with the monitor mix guy. So I asked how did they get into sound? The FOH  guy got made redundant from selling double glazing, bought a PA and undercut everyone locally on prices.

I had the misfortune of working with him a number of times and always took my biggest amp, agreed to turn down and turned it back up during the first song. 

maltingsaudio

Reverend said:

Also, my experience from playing and from tour managing across Europe and the States is a lot engineers are not great. 

Same can be said about musicians! Everyone on a gig is  either part of the problem or part of the solution 

Keefy

ICBM said:

Reverend said:

Relying on monitors is all well and good until you realise that means you'll not hear anything if the monitor engineer or set up is shit. 
I've had sound engineers insist I turn down but not put enough guitar in the mix in the monitor to be of any use, even after asking 5 times.

There's also the problem of using controlled feedback - it just doesn't seem to work well through wedge monitors, it's either hard to get any at all, or too difficult to control and tends to go into microphonic feedback and just squeal. You need the amp at least mostly behind you so you and the guitar body are between the speakers and the pickups.

I've had this where the guitar is as loud in the floor monitor as from the amp. I think it comes from phase cancellation in some spots (no feedback/sustain) and reinforcement in others (uncontrollable feedback).

robinbowes

Danny1969 said:

Next week we start our weekend mini tour of venues in Leeds, Cirencester, Liverpool, Bristol and London and we have no amps onstage at all. I use a Pod Go, bass player uses a DI pedal and we have 3 keyboards which are DI'ed directly. There are no monitors onstage, it's all IEM's. Only noise onstage is the kit

What date are you in Leeds? I'm close by...

R.

WiresDreamDisasters

I'm not much of a live sound engineer, but the few times I've done it I've always prioritized the drums and vocals through the PA, and had the guitarists and bassist to get their stage levels relative to the drums. Fill in with the PA if required - usually it isn't.

I feel this works best for the sorts of shows you typically get in small 50-200 capacity venues.

sjo89

WiresDreamDisasters said:

I'm not much of a live sound engineer, but the few times I've done it I've always prioritized the drums and vocals through the PA, and had the guitarists and bassist to get their stage levels relative to the drums. Fill in with the PA if required - usually it isn't.

I feel this works best for the sorts of shows you typically get in small 50-200 capacity venues.

Exactly. Back in the 80's and 90's a decent sound guy could get a great FOH sound even with loud amps. Of course there were some issues, but the idea that silent stages are 'better' is based on what? That the mix sound more like a CD? Good sound is important yes, but when it comes to live, a good show is MORE important. Nobody remembers the gigs that just sounded great, they remember the ones that were a great show and had atmosphere.

robinbowes

sjo89 said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

I'm not much of a live sound engineer, but the few times I've done it I've always prioritized the drums and vocals through the PA, and had the guitarists and bassist to get their stage levels relative to the drums. Fill in with the PA if required - usually it isn't.

I feel this works best for the sorts of shows you typically get in small 50-200 capacity venues.

Exactly. Back in the 80's and 90's a decent sound guy could get a great FOH sound even with loud amps. Of course there were some issues, but the idea that silent stages are 'better' is based on what? That the mix sound more like a CD? Good sound is important yes, but when it comes to live, a good show is MORE important. Nobody remembers the gigs that just sounded great, they remember the ones that were a great show and had atmosphere.

I can assure you that if a guitarist plays way too loud on-stage and won't turn down then there's nothing the engineer can do.

Getting a good sound is not all about the sound guy - the guitarist needs to do the right thing.

R.

digitalscream

For my part...I prefer to have my volume set so that I can just about hear myself from my position relative to the drums. That's all I need.

The problem with quiet stages is that even if you're using a modeller through a cab, the sound is markedly different when quiet compared to loud. I'm positive that it's not just the perception thing, it's the way the speakers (and everything else on stage) react to volume. Up to a point, louder is always going to sound better with distorted guitars (which are the only kind I care about). Once you hit that point - where you get the "THUNK" sound and feeling - there's little to be gained by going any louder. If an engineer insists that I be quieter than that...I'll probably get a little bit grumpy.

Still, it's their house, so...their rules. I'll just seethe quietly too.

sjo89

digitalscream said:

For my part...I prefer to have my volume set so that I can just about hear myself from my position relative to the drums. That's all I need.

The problem with quiet stages is that even if you're using a modeller through a cab, the sound is markedly different when quiet compared to loud. I'm positive that it's not just the perception thing, it's the way the speakers (and everything else on stage) react to volume. Up to a point, louder is always going to sound better with distorted guitars (which are the only kind I care about). Once you hit that point - where you get the "THUNK" sound and feeling - there's little to be gained by going any louder. If an engineer insists that I be quieter than that...I'll probably get a little bit grumpy.

Still, it's their house, so...their rules. I'll just seethe quietly too.

theres a difference between "loud" and "too loud" though

shufflebeat

sjo89 said:

but the idea that silent stages are 'better' is based on what?

---------

Often the testimony of old, deaf musicians.

Wow, the "quote" facility here is a bit arcane. It does make pretty pictures, though.

slacker

robinbowes said:

sjo89 said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

I'm not much of a live sound engineer, but the few times I've done it I've always prioritized the drums and vocals through the PA, and had the guitarists and bassist to get their stage levels relative to the drums. Fill in with the PA if required - usually it isn't.

I feel this works best for the sorts of shows you typically get in small 50-200 capacity venues.

Exactly. Back in the 80's and 90's a decent sound guy could get a great FOH sound even with loud amps. Of course there were some issues, but the idea that silent stages are 'better' is based on what? That the mix sound more like a CD? Good sound is important yes, but when it comes to live, a good show is MORE important. Nobody remembers the gigs that just sounded great, they remember the ones that were a great show and had atmosphere.

I can assure you that if a guitarist plays way too loud on-stage and won't turn down then there's nothing the engineer can do.

Getting a good sound is not all about the sound guy - the guitarist needs to do the right thing.

R.

The sound engineers job is to get a good sound for the band not make it easy for themselves. I've worked with good engineers in various situations including really nasty acoustics (building, not an Eko Ranger). There was no need to be 'difficult'.

However there were some who were abysmal. I had one situation in a rehearsal where the singer changed the key at the last moment. I grabbed a pen and wrote the changes whilst the drummer and pianist ran throughout it. When they finished the sound guy launched a rant at me how loud I was, turn it down...

digitalscream

sjo89 said:

digitalscream said:

For my part...I prefer to have my volume set so that I can just about hear myself from my position relative to the drums. That's all I need.

The problem with quiet stages is that even if you're using a modeller through a cab, the sound is markedly different when quiet compared to loud. I'm positive that it's not just the perception thing, it's the way the speakers (and everything else on stage) react to volume. Up to a point, louder is always going to sound better with distorted guitars (which are the only kind I care about). Once you hit that point - where you get the "THUNK" sound and feeling - there's little to be gained by going any louder. If an engineer insists that I be quieter than that...I'll probably get a little bit grumpy.

Still, it's their house, so...their rules. I'll just seethe quietly too.

theres a difference between "loud" and "too loud" though

Yes, but that's subjective. And, usually, the sound engineer's definition of "too loud" noticeably before that thunk comes out.

robinbowes

slacker said:.

The sound engineers job is to get a good sound for the band not make it easy for themselves...

Right, but sometimes that's not possible if the guitarist is too loud on stage.

The sound engineer is not necessarily being difficult if he asks someone to turn down on stage.

Musicians and the production staff need to work together, not lock horns.

R.

WiresDreamDisasters

sjo89 said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

I'm not much of a live sound engineer, but the few times I've done it I've always prioritized the drums and vocals through the PA, and had the guitarists and bassist to get their stage levels relative to the drums. Fill in with the PA if required - usually it isn't.

I feel this works best for the sorts of shows you typically get in small 50-200 capacity venues.

Exactly. Back in the 80's and 90's a decent sound guy could get a great FOH sound even with loud amps. Of course there were some issues, but the idea that silent stages are 'better' is based on what? That the mix sound more like a CD? Good sound is important yes, but when it comes to live, a good show is MORE important. Nobody remembers the gigs that just sounded great, they remember the ones that were a great show and had atmosphere.

I agree with you entirely. But you're not gonna win this one here - grandad wants it quiet, ya hear!?!

Danny1969

robinbowes said:

slacker said:.

The sound engineers job is to get a good sound for the band not make it easy for themselves...

Right, but sometimes that's not possible if the guitarist is too loud on stage.

The sound engineer is not necessarily being difficult if he asks someone to turn down on stage.

Musicians and the production staff need to work together, not lock horns.

R.

I generally find, as you probably do that the better the class of musician the less hassle they give you. Experienced players who have done hundreds of gigs can generally play fine even on quick festival changeovers with only line checks and they normally do it with a smile on their face. 
The muso's that give me the most hassle working sound are the ones that aren't that confident in their own abilities or they aren't used to playing in different live environments. You can't get a realistic PFL off them until the whole band starts, they keep trying to tell you something but they actually don't really know what they want themselves and are basically asking you to fight volume with volume ... which is never the answer. 

I guess one problem is bands are quite happy to spend 4K on 3 backline amps but seem loath to spend any money or give any brain power to working out good self monitoring if it's so important to them. It's not rocket science, you can be totally self monitoring sufficient for less than a grand   

maltingsaudio

Danny1969 said:

robinbowes said:

slacker said:.

The sound engineers job is to get a good sound for the band not make it easy for themselves...

Right, but sometimes that's not possible if the guitarist is too loud on stage.

The sound engineer is not necessarily being difficult if he asks someone to turn down on stage.

Musicians and the production staff need to work together, not lock horns.

R.

I generally find, as you probably do that the better the class of musician the less hassle they give you. Experienced players who have done hundreds of gigs can generally play fine even on quick festival changeovers with only line checks and they normally do it with a smile on their face. 
The muso's that give me the most hassle working sound are the ones that aren't that confident in their own abilities or they aren't used to playing in different live environments. You can't get a realistic PFL off them until the whole band starts, they keep trying to tell you something but they actually don't really know what they want themselves and are basically asking you to fight volume with volume ... which is never the answer. 

I guess one problem is bands are quite happy to spend 4K on 3 backline amps but seem loath to spend any money or give any brain power to working out good self monitoring if it's so important to them. It's not rocket science, you can be totally self monitoring sufficient for less than a grand   

@Danny1969 is smack on the money here in my opinion. In the 80’s 90’s monitoring expectations were no where near what they are now. Gig experience and rehearsal time can make a real difference to stage volumes and performance. And finally his point about investing in gear is so true. Musicians happy to spend 1000’s on a guitar or amp, ask them to spend more than a tenner on a decent mic stand or put the same amount of care and due diligence into their monitoring requirements and interest very quickly lost. Then they complain about what is provided free to themselves usually at the gig. 

robinbowes

Danny1969 said:

I generally find, as you probably do that the better the class of musician the less hassle they give you. Experienced players who have done hundreds of gigs can generally play fine even on quick festival changeovers with only line checks and they normally do it with a smile on their face. 
The muso's that give me the most hassle working sound are the ones that aren't that confident in their own abilities or they aren't used to playing in different live environments. You can't get a realistic PFL off them until the whole band starts, they keep trying to tell you something but they actually don't really know what they want themselves and are basically asking you to fight volume with volume ... which is never the answer. 

Absolutely this.

I used to do PAs in/around York in the late 80s/90s, and some bands were a joy to do because they were experienced pros and knew how to sound good - I just made them louder.

To be fair, the ones that were the biggest pain were not the inexperienced, but the egos who thought they knew it all, but didn't. I generally did OK because I'm not a dick (why are some sound engineers total dicks?).

R.

PolarityMan

WiresDreamDisasters said:

I'm not much of a live sound engineer, but the few times I've done it I've always prioritized the drums and vocals through the PA, and had the guitarists and bassist to get their stage levels relative to the drums. Fill in with the PA if required - usually it isn't.

I feel this works best for the sorts of shows you typically get in small 50-200 capacity venues.

Over the past 5 years we've seen a few venues we play regularly upgrade their PAs to ones that are much higher quality but lower power which I don't think helps, especially as they then usually DI the bass and eat all their headroom with the bass and kick. 

robinbowes

As usual, this debate has become polarised whereas in reality the right path is somewhere down the middle.

As a guitarist, I totally understand the need to be loud enough on stage.

As a sound engineer, I totally understand the desire to keep stage volume down, especially on small stages.

The band and the engineer need to work together to get the best compromise.

R.