Stage volume - why do sound guys hate it?

Cirrus

My ideal's always been pretty simple and, dare I say it, correct.  ....

Backline Instruments should balance with the drums in front of the stage, PA should reinforce what it needs to - starting with vocals, acoustic instruments and things like keyboard that need help then kick drum, then rest of drums, then amps.

That way the band is producing an actual sonic event that already pretty much makes sense, and the PA helps reinforce and disperse it evenly through the room. It does mean guitarists need to think about beamy amps - I usually faced mine sideways.

Another advantage of the backline being balanced with the drums is the monitoring becomes easy - for most acts, just vocals will do. They can hear their instruments just fine, and the monitors are kept clear.

All the best soundmen I've had the pleasure of working with in clubs worked like this, and only intervened when the amps were too loud compared to the drums - and if they were great, they paid attention to the band through a run through to see what the dynamic was like - a guitarist that's very loud for 10 seconds while the drummer's pounding yet hardly plays at all at other times is no problem. If a guitarist plays block chords at that loud volume for the entire song, it might well be. So amp volume judged in isolation, outside of a musical context, is largely irrelevant.

Lesser soundmen try to get more control in situations where they shouldn't, working down through levels of incompetence to near-silent stages, the total destruction of natural interplay in the ensemble, forced reliance on the monitor mixing abilities of someone who's never heard you before, and a front of house mix that will almost always be too drum heavy because loud drums feels like a safe box to tick when you're having to re-create what you imagine the band's internal balance would be if you hadn't destroyed it.

Once a venue is big enough, good sound men can start to exhibit more control as the ratio of stage to PA sound shifts in their favour.


As opinionated as what I've written is, I should be clear - I'm never antagonistic with sound people, and almost always did as they requested; for the simple reason that they have the power to make you sound terrible if you annoy them, and if they're incompetent it won't matter anyway. And I always genuinely treasure the times the mixer is excellent.

PolarityMan

Cirrus said:

Another advantage of the backline being balanced with the drums is the monitoring becomes easy - for most acts, just vocals will do. They can hear their instruments just fine, and the monitors are kept clear.

I find it hard to hear the other guitarist sometimes on a stage where the drums are almost in between you as a nice stage balance wont give you the reflection you get in a rehearsal. Tbh I like that setup though because then I can put lots of him in my monitor and control my mix by where I stand between my own amp and the monitor and having both guitars come from a different direction can help especially when your playing the same / similar thing in places. 

newi123

It`s always a balance. I watched this recently - live sound comments for a couple of minutes from 28.30 ish. Pete Thorn`s comments are really interesting on stage volume and recent trends for live mixes on rock bands. 

ICBM

Cirrus said:

My ideal's always been pretty simple and, dare I say it, correct.  ....

Backline Instruments should balance with the drums in front of the stage, PA should reinforce what it needs to - starting with vocals, acoustic instruments and things like keyboard that need help then kick drum, then rest of drums, then amps.

That way the band is producing an actual sonic event that already pretty much makes sense, and the PA helps reinforce and disperse it evenly through the room. It does mean guitarists need to think about beamy amps - I usually faced mine sideways.

Another advantage of the backline being balanced with the drums is the monitoring becomes easy - for most acts, just vocals will do. They can hear their instruments just fine, and the monitors are kept clear.

All this also. While you do need some instruments in the monitors if you can't hear them clearly from the other side of the stage, the less the better - it means the vocals dominate the monitor mix so the monitors don't have to be up as loud for the singer to hear themselves clearly, which helps avoid feedback.

Cirrus said:

As opinionated as what I've written is, I should be clear - I'm never antagonistic with sound people, and almost always did as they requested; for the simple reason that they have the power to make you sound terrible if you annoy them, and if they're incompetent it won't matter anyway. And I always genuinely treasure the times the mixer is excellent.

And this...

roberty

newi123 said:

It`s always a balance. I watched this recently - live sound comments for a couple of minutes from 28.30 ish. Pete Thorn`s comments are really interesting on stage volume and recent trends for live mixes on rock bands. 

This is exactly what I was on about. Glad it's not just me. Thanks for sharing

slacker

robinbowes said:

slacker said:.

The sound engineers job is to get a good sound for the band not make it easy for themselves...

Right, but sometimes that's not possible if the guitarist is too loud on stage.

The sound engineer is not necessarily being difficult if he asks someone to turn down on stage.

Musicians and the production staff need to work together, not lock horns.

R.

As someone who has voluntarily swapped a 15w WEM for a .5w ZVex Nano in a 400 seater venue, I dont have a problem working with crowded stages, decent sound engineers etc. The problem is when I am inaudible out front due to incompetence, laziness or bias. 

robinbowes

slacker said:

robinbowes said:

slacker said:.

The sound engineers job is to get a good sound for the band not make it easy for themselves...

Right, but sometimes that's not possible if the guitarist is too loud on stage.

The sound engineer is not necessarily being difficult if he asks someone to turn down on stage.

Musicians and the production staff need to work together, not lock horns.

R.

As someone who has voluntarily swapped a 15w WEM for a .5w ZVex Nano in a 400 seater venue, I dont have a problem working with crowded stages, decent sound engineers etc. The problem is when I am inaudible out front due to incompetence, laziness or bias. 

That's an entirely different issue!

Edit: To be clear, I mean if the engineer is not doing a good job.

Danny1969

Cirrus said:

My ideal's always been pretty simple and, dare I say it, correct.  ....

Backline Instruments should balance with the drums in front of the stage, PA should reinforce what it needs to - starting with vocals, acoustic instruments and things like keyboard that need help then kick drum, then rest of drums, then amps.

That way the band is producing an actual sonic event that already pretty much makes sense, and the PA helps reinforce and disperse it evenly through the room. It does mean guitarists need to think about beamy amps - I usually faced mine sideways.

Yeah that's the point I said earlier. In fact if you don't do that the people near the front of the stage will have a terrible mix as they are too forward to get the beam of the FOH speakers .... they will basically just have mainly drums to listen to. 

I don't know about facing the amp sidewards though. Generally if you do that at the back of the stage then the poor old drummer is gonna get it. If you have it further forward facing sidewards then surely you are beaming it into the vocalist.

I remember years ago the Eagles used to mic the amps off stage, that probably helped 

WiresDreamDisasters

One thing that does not seem to have been mentioned is sound engineers by default just cranking the guitars in the monitors. This can quite often make the problem worse, especially on smaller stages. Everyone struggles to hear themselves, so turns up louder.

I favour ZERO guitars in the monitors. Let the amp and cab do it's job.

Keefy

WiresDreamDisasters said:

One thing that does not seem to have been mentioned is sound engineers by default just cranking the guitars in the monitors. This can quite often make the problem worse, especially on smaller stages. Everyone struggles to hear themselves, so turns up louder.

I favour ZERO guitars in the monitors. Let the amp and cab do it's job.

Agreed - I don't want to hear my own amp in the monitors. But I might want to have some monitor of the guitarist on the other side of the stage.

Danny1969

Keefy said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

One thing that does not seem to have been mentioned is sound engineers by default just cranking the guitars in the monitors. This can quite often make the problem worse, especially on smaller stages. Everyone struggles to hear themselves, so turns up louder.

I favour ZERO guitars in the monitors. Let the amp and cab do it's job.

Agreed - I don't want to hear my own amp in the monitors. But I might want to have some monitor of the guitarist on the other side of the stage.

On a small stage I'm the same but on a big stage, where your amp can be 6 or 7 metres behind you then,  if you're not on ears it needs to be in the monitor, otherwise it's like playing through a DAW with shit latency. 

Likewise the drums, I always have a fair bit of hi hat in a festival or big indoor stage  otherwise you will naturally play behind the beat as you are hearing it late. 

mike257

There's definitely a weird perception from some quarters that the sound guy is out to ruin your day and disagree with your sound. 

Live shows are a team sport and great ones take communication and compromise. I don't like being "that guy" and asking bands to turn down, but if I feel that's what needs to happen to make that band come across as best as possible, I'll ask. 

Small venues of a few hundred cap are often tricky. Very few of them are acoustically favourable. They all pose unique challenges and all involve a degree of compromise to make it work as best it can for as many of the crowd as possible. 

In those situations, I'll start my soundcheck with nothing but the vocals (and any unamplified instruments) in both FOH and monitors, and I'll listen to it. The most important thing at this point is that the band start to get a feel for the stage sound before flooding it with extra shite in the wedges, and that I can get an appropriate level of volume and clarity in the vocals.

If something on stage is stopping me from doing that, I'll address it in a positive and diplomatic way. If I'm asking you to change something, whether it's your stage level, your tone, or the positioning of the amp, it's because I believe it's the right thing to do to make the overall experience of listening to your performance the best it can be for your audience. I'm not there to do anything other than make the gig great - sound engineers want you to sound awesome because it's their pride in their work, and their reputation too. Believe it or not, I like to keep getting hired so I can actually pay my mortgage, so it's not in my interest to half-arse it!

Keefy

Danny1969 said:

Keefy said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

One thing that does not seem to have been mentioned is sound engineers by default just cranking the guitars in the monitors. This can quite often make the problem worse, especially on smaller stages. Everyone struggles to hear themselves, so turns up louder.

I favour ZERO guitars in the monitors. Let the amp and cab do it's job.

Agreed - I don't want to hear my own amp in the monitors. But I might want to have some monitor of the guitarist on the other side of the stage.

On a small stage I'm the same but on a big stage, where your amp can be 6 or 7 metres behind you then,  if you're not on ears it needs to be in the monitor, otherwise it's like playing through a DAW with shit latency. 

...

Fair point. I was once playing a gig in a giant yurt (don't ask!) and wandered forward to do some suitable poses - suddenly I could barely hear my amp.

sjo89

robinbowes said:

As usual, this debate has become polarised whereas in reality the right path is somewhere down the middle.

As a guitarist, I totally understand the need to be loud enough on stage.

As a sound engineer, I totally understand the desire to keep stage volume down, especially on small stages.

The band and the engineer need to work together to get the best compromise.

R.

hear hear. But it would seem with silent stages becoming more and more prevalent the sound engineers are winning.

sjo89

I've not had the luxury of playing many decent size stages. In fact most the time the stages are so small we have to be careful not to clash guitar necks. This means the cymbals are right next to my ears and we play LOUD heavy rock with a heavy handed drummer, usually in fairly small venues. Which means that the drums DOMINATE the room (why they even mic the cymbals I dont know!?). It also means that in order for me to even faintly hear myself my amp needs to be LOUD, even louder if I can't point it at my head.

Y'all must have quiet drummers!

Bezzer

What I’m finding interesting here is the idea that without loud on stage volume the performance will be lesser. 

Frankly, if you don’t / can’t deliver the goods in whatever stage setup you have to use, you and your band aren’t doing your job,

I like a pretty quiet stage, it’s why I’ve gone full digital, I can give the front of house a direct feed and run my own little speaker for my sound, pointed away from the audience. I’d rather use IEM to be honest. 

I’d rather hear everything clearly so I can give my best on guitar and vocals, then hear an unbalanced mix of just my side of the stage and cock all else.

Granted, just my 2p and I am in a grumpy ass mood. Listen to your sound guys … they know what they are doing. Better than you. And if you’re not a dick will try to help you. 

shufflebeat

mike257 said:

Live shows are a team sport and great ones take communication and compromise. 

Small venues of a few hundred cap are often tricky. Very few of them are acoustically favourable. They all pose unique challenges and all involve a degree of compromise to make it work as best it can for as many of the crowd as possible. 

Believe it or not, I like to keep getting hired so I can actually pay my mortgage, so it's not in my interest to half-arse it!

Love it.

WiresDreamDisasters

Bezzer said:

What I’m finding interesting here is the idea that without loud on stage volume the performance will be lesser. 

Frankly, if you don’t / can’t deliver the goods in whatever stage setup you have to use, you and your band aren’t doing your job,

What sort of band do you play in?

WiresDreamDisasters

mike257 said:

There's definitely a weird perception from some quarters that the sound guy is out to ruin your day and disagree with your sound. 

It's not always a perception. Sometimes I've heard what the sound person has done for the other bands on the line-up, and I've been able to draw a few conclusions about levels and bass emphasis and what not. When a drummer hits a floor tom and there's a huge resonant peak that the dude hasn't dealt with... I know he's a chump and isn't worth listening to.

WiresDreamDisasters

Danny1969 said:

Keefy said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

One thing that does not seem to have been mentioned is sound engineers by default just cranking the guitars in the monitors. This can quite often make the problem worse, especially on smaller stages. Everyone struggles to hear themselves, so turns up louder.

I favour ZERO guitars in the monitors. Let the amp and cab do it's job.

Agreed - I don't want to hear my own amp in the monitors. But I might want to have some monitor of the guitarist on the other side of the stage.

On a small stage I'm the same but on a big stage, where your amp can be 6 or 7 metres behind you then,  if you're not on ears it needs to be in the monitor, otherwise it's like playing through a DAW with shit latency. 

Likewise the drums, I always have a fair bit of hi hat in a festival or big indoor stage  otherwise you will naturally play behind the beat as you are hearing it late. 

Yes, on a larger stage I'll have some in the monitors. But still not blasting my face off. I don't need to hear our other guitarist either. I mainly need to hear myself and the drums.