Stage volume - why do sound guys hate it?

PolarityMan

mike257 said:

There's definitely a weird perception from some quarters that the sound guy is out to ruin your day and disagree with your sound. 

Live shows are a team sport and great ones take communication and compromise. I don't like being "that guy" and asking bands to turn down, but if I feel that's what needs to happen to make that band come across as best as possible, I'll ask. 

Small venues of a few hundred cap are often tricky. Very few of them are acoustically favourable. They all pose unique challenges and all involve a degree of compromise to make it work as best it can for as many of the crowd as possible. 

In those situations, I'll start my soundcheck with nothing but the vocals (and any unamplified instruments) in both FOH and monitors, and I'll listen to it. The most important thing at this point is that the band start to get a feel for the stage sound before flooding it with extra shite in the wedges, and that I can get an appropriate level of volume and clarity in the vocals.

If something on stage is stopping me from doing that, I'll address it in a positive and diplomatic way. If I'm asking you to change something, whether it's your stage level, your tone, or the positioning of the amp, it's because I believe it's the right thing to do to make the overall experience of listening to your performance the best it can be for your audience. I'm not there to do anything other than make the gig great - sound engineers want you to sound awesome because it's their pride in their work, and their reputation too. Believe it or not, I like to keep getting hired so I can actually pay my mortgage, so it's not in my interest to half-arse it!

If you are paying the mortgage with live sound engineering then you are probably several tiers up from the typical sound engineers running the gigs we play

shufflebeat

PolarityMan said:

mike257 said:

 I like to keep getting hired so I can actually pay my mortgage, so it's not in my interest to half-arse it!

If you are paying the mortgage with live sound engineering then you are probably several tiers up from the typical sound engineers running the gigs we play

I think most folks in live entertainment are spinning many plates simultaneously.

shufflebeat

WiresDreamDisasters said:

mike257 said:

There's definitely a weird perception from some quarters that the sound guy is out to ruin your day and disagree with your sound. 

It's not always a perception. Sometimes I've heard what the sound person has done for the other bands on the line-up, and I've been able to draw a few conclusions about levels and bass emphasis and what not. When a drummer hits a floor tom and there's a huge resonant peak that the dude hasn't dealt with... I know he's a chump and isn't worth listening to.

Isn't that just a sign of crap workmanship?

robinbowes

WiresDreamDisasters said:

One thing that does not seem to have been mentioned is sound engineers by default just cranking the guitars in the monitors. This can quite often make the problem worse, especially on smaller stages. Everyone struggles to hear themselves, so turns up louder.

I favour ZERO guitars in the monitors. Let the amp and cab do it's job.

I use a Helix live, and have made this mistake myself, ie. cranked my own guitar too loud in my monitor. Easy to do, especially when the on-stage wedges are the same speaker as the FoH tops

R.

sjo89

Can I ask those that do so what their IEM setup is, particularly in regards to gear they use?

Bezzer

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Bezzer said:

What I’m finding interesting here is the idea that without loud on stage volume the performance will be lesser. 

Frankly, if you don’t / can’t deliver the goods in whatever stage setup you have to use, you and your band aren’t doing your job,

What sort of band do you play in?

Last one was prog-thrash for want of a better term.   Just starting up in a folk metal band now.  Always been on the heavier end of the spectrum though.

Cirrus

PolarityMan said:

mike257 said:

There's definitely a weird perception from some quarters that the sound guy is out to ruin your day and disagree with your sound. 

...

If you are paying the mortgage with live sound engineering then you are probably several tiers up from the typical sound engineers running the gigs we play

Yes. Everyone's talking from their own position and experience as if we're all on the same page. If you play mainly city centre clubs on multi band gigs playing original music, you are going to meet a lot of useless sound men. You'll also meet some pros - but since the sound man is the choice of the venue or promoter, cost is more of a factor than competence. I once played a festival where the sound man gave us a lecture about something called "feedback" and pointed an sm57 at the wooden baffle between my ac30's speakers. That sort of thing isn't atypical.


If you're mostly doing corporate functions, covers, summer festivals, weddings etc, the entire dynamic between the band, the event, and the audience is different and this necessitates different priorities.

If you don't know the first thing about live sound yourself, and don't have much gigging experience, even incompetent soundmen who will make an excellent band sound muddy and indistinct might help you raise your game.

And it can be true both that competent bands often meet terrible sound men, and that competent sound men often meet terrible bands.

PolarityMan

shufflebeat said:

PolarityMan said:

mike257 said:

 I like to keep getting hired so I can actually pay my mortgage, so it's not in my interest to half-arse it!

If you are paying the mortgage with live sound engineering then you are probably several tiers up from the typical sound engineers running the gigs we play

I think most folks in live entertainment are spinning many plates simultaneously.

I agree there are lots of clowns doing it in the small pubs/clubs circuits

robinbowes

Cirrus said:

And it can be true both that competent bands often meet terrible sound men, and that competent sound men often meet terrible bands.

As a soundman and terrible band member, I suspect there are more terrible bands than terrible sound men, although the proportion of each population is probably similar

Cirrus

robinbowes said:

Cirrus said:

And it can be true both that competent bands often meet terrible sound men, and that competent sound men often meet terrible bands.

As a soundman and terrible band member, I suspect there are more terrible bands than terrible sound men, although the proportion of each population is probably similar

It's not looking good for me is it 

fastonebaz

At one gig  the sound man shone his torch through my cab cloth to see where the cone was so he could align the mic exactly where he wanted it.   I was quite impressed with that effort.

sjo89

fastonebaz said:

At one gig  the sound man shone his torch through my cab cloth to see where the cone was so he could align the mic exactly where he wanted it.   I was quite impressed with that effort.

Maybe he wanted to confirm what it was!

WiresDreamDisasters

Bezzer said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Bezzer said:

What I’m finding interesting here is the idea that without loud on stage volume the performance will be lesser. 

Frankly, if you don’t / can’t deliver the goods in whatever stage setup you have to use, you and your band aren’t doing your job,

What sort of band do you play in?

Last one was prog-thrash for want of a better term.   Just starting up in a folk metal band now.  Always been on the heavier end of the spectrum though.

Interesting.

The few times I've seen heavy bands with IEM's and DI'd signals from their modellers, there has been a distinct "clean" quality to the sound and their performances. I'm thinking of Tesseract specifically, but there have been other smaller bands too. Whereas if you see someone like Clutch or Mastodon, it's all valve amps and walls of sound and a come-what-may-devil-may-cry attitude that comes with the music.

I'm not saying either one is bad. Just what I prefer. I'll take a hit to the sonic quality of a band if I get a better performance in return.

I saw an interview with the Karnivool guys, doing a rig rundown. And one of their guitarists said that they tried the IEM route and found it affected their enjoyment and their performances in a negative way.

I've toyed with IEM's myself. But not sure I want the extra hassle of setting up. Encorporating IEM's into a modeller setup seems to be a lot easier than doing it with a valve amp setup, and you're even more at the whim of the sound guy I would suppose?

Our drummer does use IEM's for one track where he plays to a click and I play half the song using Ableton Live and my Push2 controller. I'm kinda at my tolerance limit with the amount of setup I want to go through each time.

Bezzer

WiresDreamDisasters said:

The few times I've seen heavy bands with IEM's and DI'd signals from their modellers, there has been a distinct "clean" quality to the sound and their performances. I'm thinking of Tesseract specifically, but there have been other smaller bands too. Whereas if you see someone like Clutch or Mastodon, it's all valve amps and walls of sound and a come-what-may-devil-may-cry attitude that comes with the music.

I know what you mean, but given those bands specifically (and it’s not a dig on anyone as I like all three) I think you’d get the same result performance wise if the gear were flipped. It’s ingrained in their DNA. Ok the sound may differ but specifically the performance I don’t think would. 

And I think that’s all I’m saying, the bands job is deliver the best performance to the crowd they can, consistently. Saying “I can’t give the performance I want because that <insert gear gripe of choice here>” is a bit disingenuous… I’ve had many gigs I’ve hated because of the promoters, the venue, the shite I’m forced to play through because of gear share requirements. I still give everything I can for the performance side of it.

Maybe I’m over simplifying.

Cirrus

Bezzer said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

The few times I've seen heavy bands with IEM's and DI'd signals from their modellers, there has been a distinct "clean" quality to the sound and their performances. I'm thinking of Tesseract specifically, but there have been other smaller bands too. Whereas if you see someone like Clutch or Mastodon, it's all valve amps and walls of sound and a come-what-may-devil-may-cry attitude that comes with the music.

I know what you mean, but given those bands specifically (and it’s not a dig on anyone as I like all three) I think you’d get the same result performance wise if the gear were flipped. It’s ingrained in their DNA. Ok the sound may differ but specifically the performance I don’t think would. 

And I think that’s all I’m saying, the bands job is deliver the best performance to the crowd they can, consistently. Saying “I can’t give the performance I want because that <insert gear gripe of choice here>” is a bit disingenuous… I’ve had many gigs I’ve hated because of the promoters, the venue, the shite I’m forced to play through because of gear share requirements. I still give everything I can for the performance side of it.

Maybe I’m over simplifying.

I think it's possible to be held back by the situation, even if you're still giving your all to give the crowd what they came for - but the environment on stage does matter; if you can't hear the rest of the band because of terrible monitoring/ acoustics, you're going to have to devote more mental energy to keeping in time with them rather than that all just being second nature and getting into the zone. You use your skill and experience to overcome the problem, but it'd clearly be better if the problem wasn't there to start with.

I wrote a whole lot yesterday about exactly what my preference and philosophy is to live sound. But I've never once complained mid set about a sound issue, no matter how bad it was - because it'd just have derailed the vibe of the show. I always give my all. I just know it's a much easier experience when the sound is good and the relationship of the backline instruments and monitors makes sense up on stage. Those are the gigs where you leave yourself for somewhere else, and the next thing you know it's over and you're packing up.

WiresDreamDisasters

Bezzer said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

The few times I've seen heavy bands with IEM's and DI'd signals from their modellers, there has been a distinct "clean" quality to the sound and their performances. I'm thinking of Tesseract specifically, but there have been other smaller bands too. Whereas if you see someone like Clutch or Mastodon, it's all valve amps and walls of sound and a come-what-may-devil-may-cry attitude that comes with the music.

I know what you mean, but given those bands specifically (and it’s not a dig on anyone as I like all three) I think you’d get the same result performance wise if the gear were flipped. It’s ingrained in their DNA. Ok the sound may differ but specifically the performance I don’t think would. 

And I think that’s all I’m saying, the bands job is deliver the best performance to the crowd they can, consistently. Saying “I can’t give the performance I want because that <insert gear gripe of choice here>” is a bit disingenuous… I’ve had many gigs I’ve hated because of the promoters, the venue, the shite I’m forced to play through because of gear share requirements. I still give everything I can for the performance side of it.

Maybe I’m over simplifying.

Let me throw a curve ball.

When we played ArcTangent and Damnation Festival in 2015, those shows should've been some of my favourite shows EVER.

They were in terms of opportunity and the crowd and the social aspects of it. I loved them.

But our sets were annoying and frustrating for me. Because in both cases I used the top cab of a pair of 4x12's, and I was being slaughtered by beaminess throughout the entire set. It really ruined my enjoyment, and ruined my performance, because I couldn't get into the music, couldn't get into the vibe and the atmosphere.

Playing to 1400 people or so, and not enjoying it because of stupid gear issues.... really annoying and unsatisfying.

It's the same for volume related things. I use feedback a fair amount in our music. If I can't get it, then the music isn't right. And you need a certain amount of volume to get good sounding musical feedback.

fretmeister

Really interesting point about stage sound leading to better or worse performances.

When I'm singing (trad metal / covers etc) I don't use monitors for my voice - I use foam ear plugs that have really uneven attenuation and I hear my voice through my skull instead. I really like it that way even with the excessive treble attenuation. 

But those foam ear plugs attenuate all the other instruments in the same uneven way too, so the mix I'm hearing has zero to do with the stage sound or the FOH sound. It's not even a quiet version of the FOH. More like an underwater version.

I never found that it affected my performance, if anything I was far more confident because I knew my vocal would be right with this method.

As long as I can hear the things I need to hear I don't have any need for a particular tonal quality. 

Bezzer

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Let me throw a curve ball.

When we played ArcTangent and Damnation Festival in 2015, those shows should've been some of my favourite shows EVER.

They were in terms of opportunity and the crowd and the social aspects of it. I loved them.

But our sets were annoying and frustrating for me. Because in both cases I used the top cab of a pair of 4x12's, and I was being slaughtered by beaminess throughout the entire set. It really ruined my enjoyment, and ruined my performance, because I couldn't get into the music, couldn't get into the vibe and the atmosphere.

So your saying it was ruined by a loud badly placed amp being on the stage ... yeah? 

I do get what you mean, thats why I mentioned the gear share stuff ... did pretty big gig with a band I will not name and was told I had to share a rig.  Did the whole thing through a f***ed old marshall stuck at a weird angle and relying on fixing my pedals to make the "untouchable amp" sound close to what I wanted.

Hated every minute of that sound.  But just found a few spots I could hear me, the drums and chief gobbist and did the best I could.  I like to think no one watching would have noticed even if I was not having fun.  That's part of the job isn't it?  And I guess why a lot of gear gets smashed at the end of shows.  You have to make do with the hand your dealt and sort of condition yourself into living with it for a night.

TBH I suspect your show was the same, people watching probably didn't know how fed up you were, I suspect you still gave everything you could ... and the only people who would know are you and MAYBE some of the band.

WiresDreamDisasters

Badly placed for sure. Not loud as such. I mean those were big stages, but the beaminess of the top cab was awful. Since then I've vowed if I ever have that situation again (and I will Jules, I will!) I will use the lower cab instead.

It's absolutely possible to be too loud. But I think for your average rock and metal band the threshold needs to be a lot higher. 

ICBM

WiresDreamDisasters said:

It's not always a perception. Sometimes I've heard what the sound person has done for the other bands on the line-up, and I've been able to draw a few conclusions about levels and bass emphasis and what not. When a drummer hits a floor tom and there's a huge resonant peak that the dude hasn't dealt with... I know he's a chump and isn't worth listening to.

One of my 'favourite' experiences with a venue sound engineer was him asking me to turn my bass amp down because the DI'd sound through the PA was distorted (it was, very) - when the amp was clean on stage. I told him that it wouldn't make any difference because the amp was not clipping, the DI output was pre-master, and (politely) that he should check that the pad switch was engaged on the desk channel since it was clearly that the DI signal was just too hot for the desk. He insisted it was the amp being too loud, so I simply turned the master down to zero - making the amp silent on stage - and the problem didn't go away. Well it's not that then, is it? He finally fixed it, so I suspect he found the pad button...

fastonebaz said:

At one gig  the sound man shone his torch through my cab cloth to see where the cone was so he could align the mic exactly where he wanted it.   I was quite impressed with that effort.

... and another one who mic'ed the guitarist's cab - which was a diagonal 2x12" - in the top corner where there was no speaker, so he was basically mic'ing the baffle. He then said "I'm not getting much level from the guitar, can you turn up?" To which the guitarist said "certainly!"

It didn't seem to cause any problems out front.