Stage volume - why do sound guys hate it?

slacker

I knew someone who cut a hole in a Marshall basketweave 4x12 to give the sound man a clue.

On the performance thing. There are a number of things that will affect how we feel. Personally I play better if I'm happy with the circumstances or really pissed off. 

I can play if the circumstances are not ideal but why should I?

We are using the house Fender HRD. Well you might be but I'm using my Matchless.

Cirrus

p90fool

This is our solution, my missus plays an Arbiter Flats kit with light sticks and cymbals and a well-damped snare, and the backline is turned down to match. 

PA guys love it, it mics up beautifully because it's always well tuned due to its single tension rod system, and there are no resonant heads, shells or rattly bits. 

It means that in very quiet unmiced gigs like this one we can totally relax when we play, without that horrible tentative feeling of trying to rein it in.

PolarityMan

I dare say a bit less aggressive music though.

Reverend

I'd imagine your invocation of Azagthoth, Leviathan and Azrael gets short shrift from Satan.

p90fool

PolarityMan said:

I dare say a bit less aggressive music though.

Probably, but we're hardly a jazz quartet;

maltingsaudio

p90fool said:

This is our solution, my missus plays an Arbiter Flats kit with light sticks and cymbals and a well-damped snare, and the backline is turned down to match. 

PA guys love it, it mics up beautifully because it's always well tuned due to its single tension rod system, and there are no resonant heads, shells or rattly bits. 

It means that in very quiet unmiced gigs like this one we can totally relax when we play, without that horrible tentative feeling of trying to rein it in.

Depending on the PA you can make those flat kits sound huge in a room

p90fool

@maltingsaudio definitely, we've gigged it in front of 3,500 people a few times through a big rig and it always sounds immense. 

WiresDreamDisasters

This was us last Saturday, playing our "annual" show (lol, still tickles me Jules!)

There are a few clips there. Now for my tastes, the bass was a bit boomy. But that could be where the guy filming was stood in the room. If he was in a low frequency peak, then he'd be experiencing a bass lift. But aside from that, it's pretty clear. You can hear everything. Drums are not taking everyone's faces off, and the guitars aren't dominating. That's how it should be. Balanced.

I took this on stage just as we finished. Can't wait to do it again in 2022

robinbowes

WiresDreamDisasters said:

This was us last Saturday, playing our "annual" show (lol, still tickles me Jules!)

There are a few clips there. Now for my tastes, the bass was a bit boomy. But that could be where the guy filming was stood in the room. If he was in a low frequency peak, then he'd be experiencing a bass lift. But aside from that, it's pretty clear. You can hear everything. Drums are not taking everyone's faces off, and the guitars aren't dominating. That's how it should be. Balanced.

Sounds great that. Agree about the bass, but difficult to avoid.

WiresDreamDisasters

maltingsaudio said:

Depending on the PA you can make those flat kits sound huge in a room

Of course. Proximity effect can do wonders for small sounding drums and amps!

sjo89

robinbowes said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

This was us last Saturday, playing our "annual" show (lol, still tickles me Jules!)

There are a few clips there. Now for my tastes, the bass was a bit boomy. But that could be where the guy filming was stood in the room. If he was in a low frequency peak, then he'd be experiencing a bass lift. But aside from that, it's pretty clear. You can hear everything. Drums are not taking everyone's faces off, and the guitars aren't dominating. That's how it should be. Balanced.

Sounds great that. Agree about the bass, but difficult to avoid.

Sounds amazing. Is this a 'traditional' setup? i.e. guitar amps on stage? 

WiresDreamDisasters

sjo89 said:

robinbowes said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

This was us last Saturday, playing our "annual" show (lol, still tickles me Jules!)

There are a few clips there. Now for my tastes, the bass was a bit boomy. But that could be where the guy filming was stood in the room. If he was in a low frequency peak, then he'd be experiencing a bass lift. But aside from that, it's pretty clear. You can hear everything. Drums are not taking everyone's faces off, and the guitars aren't dominating. That's how it should be. Balanced.

Sounds great that. Agree about the bass, but difficult to avoid.

Sounds amazing. Is this a 'traditional' setup? i.e. guitar amps on stage? 

Yeah - two guitarists, one bassist, one drummer. Both using Orange 4x12's that the venue had as backline. I was using a Marshall JVM410HJS, and the other dude was using a Diezel Hagen.

sjo89

WiresDreamDisasters said:

sjo89 said:

robinbowes said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

This was us last Saturday, playing our "annual" show (lol, still tickles me Jules!)

There are a few clips there. Now for my tastes, the bass was a bit boomy. But that could be where the guy filming was stood in the room. If he was in a low frequency peak, then he'd be experiencing a bass lift. But aside from that, it's pretty clear. You can hear everything. Drums are not taking everyone's faces off, and the guitars aren't dominating. That's how it should be. Balanced.

Sounds great that. Agree about the bass, but difficult to avoid.

Sounds amazing. Is this a 'traditional' setup? i.e. guitar amps on stage? 

Yeah - two guitarists, one bassist, one drummer. Both using Orange 4x12's that the venue had as backline. I was using a Marshall JVM410HJS, and the other dude was using a Diezel Hagen.

So long story short, decent musicians with balanced amps and balanced sound is the key. The quiet stage argument is bogus. 

WiresDreamDisasters

sjo89 said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

sjo89 said:

robinbowes said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

This was us last Saturday, playing our "annual" show (lol, still tickles me Jules!)

There are a few clips there. Now for my tastes, the bass was a bit boomy. But that could be where the guy filming was stood in the room. If he was in a low frequency peak, then he'd be experiencing a bass lift. But aside from that, it's pretty clear. You can hear everything. Drums are not taking everyone's faces off, and the guitars aren't dominating. That's how it should be. Balanced.

Sounds great that. Agree about the bass, but difficult to avoid.

Sounds amazing. Is this a 'traditional' setup? i.e. guitar amps on stage? 

Yeah - two guitarists, one bassist, one drummer. Both using Orange 4x12's that the venue had as backline. I was using a Marshall JVM410HJS, and the other dude was using a Diezel Hagen.

So long story short, decent musicians with balanced amps and balanced sound is the key. The quiet stage argument is bogus. 

That's more or less how I look at it.

Live music is not meant to be a CD.

Bezzer

WiresDreamDisasters said:

sjo89 said:

So long story short, decent musicians with balanced amps and balanced sound is the key. The quiet stage argument is bogus. 

That's more or less how I look at it.

Live music is not meant to be a CD.

What, "Bogus" is rather an aggresive word isn't it?  For the band I'd say at best there's a preference.  The quest is to get the best sound possible for the venue.

You may think "hey, this sounds LOVELY up here on stage" ... but out front all they can hear as an overloud stack, a hint of crash and feck all else?

I'd rather it sounded good for the people who've paid to see me.

I get the "not a CD" thing ... that's fine, I don't want to see albums reproduced exactly with the same sounds, solos, everything ... I want to see a live performance.  But ... I wanna hear it properly too.

WiresDreamDisasters

Bezzer said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

sjo89 said:

So long story short, decent musicians with balanced amps and balanced sound is the key. The quiet stage argument is bogus. 

That's more or less how I look at it.

Live music is not meant to be a CD.

What, "Bogus" is rather an aggresive word isn't it?  For the band I'd say at best there's a preference.  The quest is to get the best sound possible for the venue.

You may think "hey, this sounds LOVELY up here on stage" ... but out front all they can hear as an overloud stack, a hint of crash and feck all else?

I'd rather it sounded good for the people who've paid to see me.

I get the "not a CD" thing ... that's fine, I don't want to see albums reproduced exactly with the same sounds, solos, everything ... I want to see a live performance.  But ... I wanna hear it properly too.

Why are you quoting me? I said "more or less" - that doesn't mean I 100% agree with his terminology or sentiment.

I've already posted evidence that we sound good out front. So I don't know why you'd aim that at me either.

slacker

Bezzer said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

sjo89 said:

So long story short, decent musicians with balanced amps and balanced sound is the key. The quiet stage argument is bogus. 

That's more or less how I look at it.

Live music is not meant to be a CD.

What, "Bogus" is rather an aggresive word isn't it?  For the band I'd say at best there's a preference.  The quest is to get the best sound possible for the venue.

You may think "hey, this sounds LOVELY up here on stage" ... but out front all they can hear as an overloud stack, a hint of crash and feck all else?

I'd rather it sounded good for the people who've paid to see me.

I get the "not a CD" thing ... that's fine, I don't want to see albums reproduced exactly with the same sounds, solos, everything ... I want to see a live performance.  But ... I wanna hear it properly too.

I've seen far too many bands that had a sludgy mess instead of a mix so agree on wanting to hear it properly. However bearing in mind that there's a clip acompanying the bogus comment it sounds good at a distance away from the stage on a phone. The bass doesnt sound right, musicmens dont sound like that, I suspect there was more top end in the room. It's not my cup of tea but the sounds and mix work together. 

A lot of dicussions on here deal with extemes, too loud or silent, too many pedals or none at all, valve or digital. 

The trick is to find that balance where everyone can hear each other, not overpower the FOH but have enough energy to give a good performance. Logistics can dictate how the sound is achieved, a wedding band frequenting venues not designed or positioned for live sound have limiters. Even a modest festival like the one I played (ok it was a lorry in a pub car park) allow one to crank the amp (Vox type 30w nmv on 6aimed at angle to avoid the audience).  

The trick is to know your venues and avoid the mismatched, unlike my old band Slacker that got accidentally booked to do alternative noise rock TM to a bunch of very upset OAPs. Happy times. 

Bezzer

@WiresDreamDisasters it wasn’t aimed at you, apologies as if it seems that way, I was leaving in the conversation flow. And since I was referencing the CD point as well it made sense.

I know you can get a good sound out front, of course you can, in the right venue with the right know how. And I know you have the latter in spades. The idea that’s the only way (which was the implication of the part you quoted) that baffles me.  And I still believe that, if the venue requires it for the best audience experience a band should adjust its preference accordingly. I strongly believe, and I’m sure you do too, that gigs are for the audience … not the band. 

sjo89

My "bogus" remark was in regards to the idea that the quieter the stage is the better the sound will be...which is what this thread is all about really.