What the hell is this chord

Axe_meister

Downloaded the tab for larry carltons room 335 and one of the chords is described as
C#m7/5 +5+
fingering is
5
5
4
(2)
4

Surely is should be written as C#7 +b11 +14

stratman3142

C#m7#5 I think. Although the #5 is on top in the version you've given.

I've just listened to it and the following version also works for the second chord, which also supports the case for it being a C#m7#5

x

5

4

7

4

x 

@viz will know

Lestratcaster

C#m7#5 I would say. The lower 3 notes make the m7, the 5 on the b string is the minor 3rd and as mentioned above the highest note is the #5. 

ArchtopDave

On the assumption that C♯ is the Root note of a minor chord, then the A is better labelled as "add ♭13" rather than (♯5).

viz

Brilliant how context is so important! Coz on its own it just sounds like a quartal chord in A - ie A sus2 (1st inversion)

But if the key is definitely C# minor as described, then I’d call it a C#m7 add b6 or b13. I don’t like the use of #5 because I can’t see how it could ever really be an augmented 5th, functionally. The minor 6th is one of the notes in a minor key, so there’s no reason for it being an aug 5. 

Edit - ATD beat me to it

tone1

How do you lot know all this stuff?....

ArchtopDave

tone1 said:

How do you lot know all this stuff?....

We enjoy the brain pain induced by exercising "ze liddle grey cells" 

Axe_meister

I've never seen the naming convention of /5+5+ before.

viz

Axe_meister said:

I've never seen the naming convention of /5+5+ before.

I think it’s a typo

stratman3142

viz said:

Brilliant how context is so important! Coz on its own it just sounds like a quartal chord in A - ie A sus2 (1st inversion)

But if the key is definitely C# minor as described, then I’d call it a C#m7 add b6 or b13. I don’t like the use of #5 because I can’t see how it could ever really be an augmented 5th, functionally. The minor 6th is one of the notes in a minor key, so there’s no reason for it being an aug 5. 

Edit - ATD beat me to it

Wouldn't your definition imply a natural 5, combined with the b6 or b13. But a natural 5 sounds wrong. If you listen to the actual track, the chord sounds like a C#m7 with a #5, in context. In fact the #5 relative to the root works (as well as the b6 or b13) rather than the natural 5. The actual key is A. The chord is like an Asus2 over C#. I think what's confusing things is that the OP puts the #5 on top.

The chord sequence is 
Dma7  C#m7#5 Bm7 C#m7
Dma7 C#m7#5 Bm7 Ama7

That fits with my thought process but perhaps not with the formal definition of things.

viz

stratman3142 said:

viz said:

Brilliant how context is so important! Coz on its own it just sounds like a quartal chord in A - ie A sus2 (1st inversion)

But if the key is definitely C# minor as described, then I’d call it a C#m7 add b6 or b13. I don’t like the use of #5 because I can’t see how it could ever really be an augmented 5th, functionally. The minor 6th is one of the notes in a minor key, so there’s no reason for it being an aug 5. 

Edit - ATD beat me to it

Wouldn't your definition imply a natural 5, combined with the b6 or b13. But a natural 5 sounds wrong. If you listen to the actual track, the chord sounds like a C#m7 with a #5, in context. In fact the #5 relative to the root works (as well as the b6 or b13) rather than the natural 5. The actual key is A. The chord is like an Asus2 over C#. I think what's confusing things is that the OP puts the #5 on top.

The chord sequence is 
Dma7  C#m7#5 Bm7 C#m7
Dma7 C#m7#5 Bm7 Ama7

That fits with my thought process but perhaps not with the formal definition of things.

Absolutely, the perfect 5th is absent (sorry I didn’t mean to imply it was there - I’m not very good at formal chord notation - does my chord name imply there’s a 5th as well? Like, should I have said (no 5) in there?)

I hadn’t spotted the name of the song in Axemeister’s first post - I just checked it, it’s the 2nd chord in the intro, right? If so, that reinforces my point even more; the first chord - the Dmaj7 - has the A in it as its 5th; then the chord slips down a semitone to a C#m, but the A stays on. That A is the minor 6th of C#m - the first 2 chords are fully diatonic to the key. It doesn’t make sense (to me) to suddenly rename the minor 6th and call it a #5 (which would be D## if notated). It’s just A. It would be like calling it D6sus2b1

If convention says it’s easier to say C#m7#5 rather than C#m7b13 (no 5th) or C#m6m7 (no 5th lol) then that’s obviously fine, but I do think it makes people think chord-by-chord rather than harmonically through the progression within the key. 

And, ja, like I first mentioned, it’s really just an A in 1st inversion with a 2nd instead of a 3rd, we agree on that  . I do think the most functionally correct way of describing it is as some sort of A/C#.

https://youtu.be/KN6AV-NsGVA

viz

Like this, basically:

https://i.imgur.com/BN5w7ry.png

(God, the internet is bollocks, most sheet music examples score it as though it were in D or even G!)

Roland

viz said:

…  I do think it makes people think chord-by-chord rather than harmonically through the progression within the key. 

This is the crux of the matter. The melody and harmony clearly work for most peoples’ ears, but classical theory struggles to document what’s going on. Whilst it can be useful to analyse music there are times when theory distracts rather than adds to the experience. 

viz

Roland said:

viz said:

…  I do think it makes people think chord-by-chord rather than harmonically through the progression within the key. 

This is the crux of the matter. The melody and harmony clearly work for most peoples’ ears, but classical theory struggles to document what’s going on. Whilst it can be useful to analyse music there are times when theory distracts rather than adds to the experience. 

I think it’s the other way round. If you call it a C#m6 or an A (1st inv), it is a more musical way of describing what’s actually happening. If you call it a #5 chord, it detracts from the purpose and sense of the chord. 

Edit - actually, sorry, yes I agree with you, I misunderstood. Yep, if there were an easy way of saying “slip down a semitone but hold the top A” for non-classically trained musicians, that would be great. I’m very slapdash. I just instinctively heard it as A/C#, and to my mind that’s theory working perfectly. As for chord names - well, classical theory doesn’t bother with that, it just has the staff!

Brad

Is this one of those infamous “mu” chords?

In any case, I’m with @viz - A/C#, or more specifically Add9/C#. A given bass note doesn’t always mean that’s the best way to view the chord from. But some chords are just in that “no man’s land” where it’s a bit vague as to what call it. I think it’s fair to say this is one of those instances. 

stratman3142

I thought I'd heard C#m7#5 somewhere before, so I did a bit of searching.

I dug out my ancient dog-eared Larry Carlton book by Leon White, and that lists it as C#mi7#5.

Interestingly Larry Carlton also refers to it as being C sharp minor seven plus five in the interview below

https://www.guitarplayer.com/players/larry-carlton-my-career-in-five-songs

Larry Carlton also mentions he got it from Peg. That leads me to think it is a variation on one of those Steely Dan "mu" chords as @Brad said, but with a 3rd in the bass.

So I'm coming round to the idea of calling it Aadd2/C#.
Or even Amu/C#

Brad

stratman3142 said:

I thought I'd heard C#m7#5 somewhere before, so I did a bit of searching.

I dug out my ancient dog-eared Larry Carlton book by Leon White, and that lists it as C#mi7#5.

Interestingly Larry Carlton also refers to it as being C sharp minor seven plus five in the interview below

https://www.guitarplayer.com/players/larry-carlton-my-career-in-five-songs

Larry Carlton also mentions he got it from Peg. That leads me to think it is a variation on one of those Steely Dan "mu" chords as @Brad said, but with a 3rd in the bass.

So I'm coming round to the idea of calling it Aadd2/C#.
Or even Amu/C#

That settles it then. If that’s what Larry calls it, who are we to disagree?  

viz

That’s cool an’ all.

Strat, your memory and knowledge are amazing! And Brad. And everyone really. 

I’m certainly not disagreeing with Mr Carlton, that’s jazz nomenclature; I was talking an older-fashioned lingo. I’m just used to naming things according to functional harmony (where it exists). But I’m happy to be learning the new-fangled (only 100-year old) stuff


At some point I might even start saying E7#9 instead of E7b10. 

stratman3142

Well here's a remarkable coincidence. Ben Eunson posted a fascinating interview with Jay Graydon today (see below) . At 53:27 in the video Jay Graydon refers to his solo to Peg

Peg has the same first two chords to Room 335, but a tone lower.

Jay Graydon refers to the chords as Cma7 to G2/B. So, for Room 335, maybe Dma7 to A2/C# is the right way of looking at it. 

viz

stratman3142 said:

Well here's a remarkable coincidence. Ben Eunson posted a fascinating interview with Jay Graydon today (see below) . At 53:27 in the video Jay Graydon refers to his solo to Peg

Peg has the same first two chords to Room 335, but a tone lower.

Jay Graydon refers to the chords as Cma7 to G2/B. So, for Room 335, maybe Dma7 to A2/C# is the right way of looking at it. 

Wow. You are amazing for spotting that, remembering it, linking the two conversations, and finding it in an hour long interview!

stratman3142

@viz I listened to the whole interview, as I was a big Jay Graydon fan and it just came up during the conversation. I've also, only in recent months, become aware of Ben Eunson and I'm blow away by his playing, so I follow his channel.

I used to play Peg in a band many years ago. Plus I had a go at learning Room 335 many years ago as well. So, in my dim and distant memory, I was aware of the connection between the two tracks.

It's quite a coincidence that the interview was posted only yesterday, given we were just talking about that chord.