Stereo vs Wet/Dry - your choice and why?

sjo89

For the first time I'm in the lucky position to be able to own two amps and as such have been able to experiment with some wet/dry and stereo sounds.

Firstly. Wow! What a massive difference it makes to the sound, experience and enjoyment. All my patches sound humungous, rich and very hi fi (fair play to Line 6 with the stomp, their stereo fx knock it out the park).

As yet, never had the chance to use it live, though i've some gigs next month i'm keen to give it a go in.

I'm wondering what your preferences are for those that use two amps and why?

I like the clarity of wet/dry, but I think I prefer the bigness of stereo and the the fact I can wide ping/pong my modulations and delays. I also like the idea that with stereo, its not too big a deal if the sound guy mic's the cabs unevenly, whereas obviously wet/dry relies heavily on a good balance. I also don't like the idea of some random sound guy having control over the wetness of my sound.

Thoughts? Thanks 

maltingsaudio

IMHO Stereo signals sound great when recorded, and unless you regularly play spaces where it can actually work, for live it is a non event. The reason is that when you try to do a true stereo mix in a small room half of the audience miss the other half of the stereo mix. In large arenas it’s great, think of Brighton Rock at Wembley or a Floyd gig, at the Dog and Ferret it’s going to sound odd to all but the lucky 2 standing in the centre of the crowd (assuming they are listening!)

sjo89

maltingsaudio said:

IMHO Stereo signals sound great when recorded, and unless you regularly play spaces where it can actually work, for live it is a non event. The reason is that when you try to do a true stereo mix in a small room half of the audience miss the other half of the stereo mix. In large arenas it’s great, think of Brighton Rock at Wembley or a Floyd gig, at the Dog and Ferret it’s going to sound odd to all but the lucky 2 standing in the centre of the crowd (assuming they are listening!)

what if cabs are always miced through PA?

maltingsaudio

@sjo89 Same thing happens through the PA, if you use two channels for the guitar signal and pan them hard left and right then only the people standing in the centre will get the benefit, those standing either side will hear one side of the PA more predominantly than the other. Most PA jobs are usually mixed in mono, with very slight panning of vocals and rack toms.for this reason

sjo89

maltingsaudio said:

@sjo89 Same thing happens through the PA, if you use two channels for the guitar signal and pan them hard left and right then only the people standing in the centre will get the benefit, those standing either side will hear one side of the PA more predominantly than the other. Most PA jobs are usually mixed in mono, with very slight panning of vocals and rack toms.for this reason

Good point. I think i'm going to try wet/dry then - seems safer in that respect.

Cirrus

But you still run the risk of the soundman deciding he likes the sound of one of your amps but not the other, so only putting one in the FOH mix and not even realising that the unheard amp is doing incredible delay effects, or just as bad, that there's a dry, punchy amp not being heard because the soundguy thinks you're a Slowdive tribute.

sjo89

Cirrus said:

But you still run the risk of the soundman deciding he likes the sound of one of your amps but not the other, so only putting one in the FOH mix and not even realising that the unheard amp is doing incredible delay effects, or just as bad, that there's a dry, punchy amp not being heard because the soundguy thinks you're a Slowdive tribute.

true. Maybe I could play it uber safe and go dual mono. Two amps definitely sound better than one. Wet/Dry, when balanced, sounds better than dual mono but as you say you need a competent sound guy. 

PolarityMan

just get a louder amp?

Jtaylor

I run stereo amps and love it. If it's a small room, or a particularly wide room where hard panned amps wouldn't work then FOH can choose to soft pan the amps. I usually play with IEM's and the difference it makes to the playing experience is certainly worth it for me personally. 

Cirrus

@sjo89 ; if I might expand on my experience... I've done most variants on the 2-amp thing. Clean/distorted, A/B/Y. Wet/Dry, and stereo.

My favourite from a player's perspective is stereo, because you can get incredible room filling ambience that way. The downsides are that it only works when the audience is getting most of the sound from your backline, and only when they aren't standing somewhere that grossly imbalances the volume of the two amps.

As soon as a PA is involved, it turns into a nightmare. Because with stereo, you need to make sure not only that the amps are in phase with each other, but that the signal from both amps in to the PA mixer are phase coherent. one mic ending up 2cm further from its speaker than the mic on the other amp = comb filter on the combined sound. Not to mention the number of XLR leads in a live environment that are wired up backwards, and having no control over how the sound guy mixes both amps.

It only works if the sound guy gets it just right - understand what you're trying to achieve, and the technical requirements that fall on him as a result - and if the venue's sound setup permits it.

Dual mono is fun, if you find complimentary amps, but stage volume becomes an issue twice as fast, and I tended to find that one amp in its sweet spot was better than 2 amps turned down for the same combined volume.

Wet/Dry, as long as it's true wet/dry with no dry in the wet amp, is a lot more resilient to phase issues because the sound coming from each amp is totally different anyway - there's no need to worry about phase coherence.

A/B is the easiest to justify - if you have a great clean amp, a different great dirty amp, then there's a practical purpose to having both on stage beside a bit of sonic candy. But it still requires a sound man who knows how to balance them. A few times when it was our show and I felt like I could get away with a bit of self indulgance, I used an AC30 combo for cleans and something with tighter overdrive into a closed back 2x12 for dirt, which meant neither amp had to compromise at all and I loved that.

But in the end, my conclusion for basically any gig short of a tour of big indoor venues or arenas was that the extra trouble of carting a second amp and then the potential technical pitfalls outweighed the minor sonic benefits which rarely actually translated out into the room anyway.

EricTheWeary

I've never done this but I did think about it a lot although there are obviously quite a few practical issues to overcome. I remember watching something about stereo vs wet-dry with Pete Thorn as well and the general principle was that the more band members you have the more direct you need your sound. So, stereo for a trio, wet-dry in a bigger band and just a kick ass single combo if you are competing with a horn section. 

I've mentioned this before but I always thought the best/ most consistent live sound at a small gig level was a band I used to see locally who had 'double mono.' So, drum kit in the middle and on either side of that a stack consisting  of a bass cab on the bottom and a guitar cab on top. A guitar amp on one side, bass amp on the other. Then widen your perspective to see a vocal PA either side of those. 

ICBM

Wet/dry/wet

Because it sounds better having a dry amp in mono and the chorus/delay/reverb etc in proper stereo.

That said it's quite a faff - I've never even done it with three real amps, only with one amp and the stereo effects DI'd via speaker emulation - which actually works very well, since the 'tone' doesn't matter so much once it's going through the stereo effects, you just hear the 'space'.

I have used true stereo with two matching amps live though - that also sounds good, and it's less important if the soundman only uses one amp in the PA.

sjo89

Cirrus said:

@sjo89 ; if I might expand on my experience... I've done most variants on the 2-amp thing. Clean/distorted, A/B/Y. Wet/Dry, and stereo.

My favourite from a player's perspective is stereo, because you can get incredible room filling ambience that way. The downsides are that it only works when the audience is getting most of the sound from your backline, and only when they aren't standing somewhere that grossly imbalances the volume of the two amps.

As soon as a PA is involved, it turns into a nightmare. Because with stereo, you need to make sure not only that the amps are in phase with each other, but that the signal from both amps in to the PA mixer are phase coherent. one mic ending up 2cm further from its speaker than the mic on the other amp = comb filter on the combined sound. Not to mention the number of XLR leads in a live environment that are wired up backwards, and having no control over how the sound guy mixes both amps.

It only works if the sound guy gets it just right - understand what you're trying to achieve, and the technical requirements that fall on him as a result - and if the venue's sound setup permits it.

Dual mono is fun, if you find complimentary amps, but stage volume becomes an issue twice as fast, and I tended to find that one amp in its sweet spot was better than 2 amps turned down for the same combined volume.

Wet/Dry, as long as it's true wet/dry with no dry in the wet amp, is a lot more resilient to phase issues because the sound coming from each amp is totally different anyway - there's no need to worry about phase coherence.

A/B is the easiest to justify - if you have a great clean amp, a different great dirty amp, then there's a practical purpose to having both on stage beside a bit of sonic candy. But it still requires a sound man who knows how to balance them. A few times when it was our show and I felt like I could get away with a bit of self indulgance, I used an AC30 combo for cleans and something with tighter overdrive into a closed back 2x12 for dirt, which meant neither amp had to compromise at all and I loved that.

But in the end, my conclusion for basically any gig short of a tour of big indoor venues or arenas was that the extra trouble of carting a second amp and then the potential technical pitfalls outweighed the minor sonic benefits which rarely actually translated out into the room anyway.

thanks for the detailed response. 

My limited experience so far is that, sans PA, stereo sounds incredible. Ran two amps about 10ft apart in last nights rehearsal and the sound was epic.

But, if there's gonna be phase issues and sound guy issues I don't wanna risk that live.

I've been spending the day comparing my presets when running wet/dry vs dual mono. 

I enjoy the clarity and separation wet/dry can bring, but the difference between that and dual mono certainly isn't as night and day as it was vs. stereo.

I enjoy the bigness of two amps, regardless of stereo, wet/dry etc. but from a practical standpoint, its unlikely they'll be spread apart on stage, which begs the question is the small sonic improvement worth all the extra effort and grief from sleepy sound guys?

Also, those who run wet/dry - do you run 100% dry and 100% wet? So far i've found i like both amps to have modulation in and for my reverbs and delays to be around 50% mix in the wet amp, so only around 25% of total mix.

WiresDreamDisasters

Sound guys (decent ones) always has for a tech spec at least a week before the gig. So you can prep them for your setup easily enough. Will it cure all issues? No, but it'll alleviate some of the pain.

What I'm contemplating is either wiring my 4x12 in stereo, or getting two 2x12 cabs, stacking them on top of one another, and then using two amps. Mic up each cab, and there you go.

But that would be for pure stereo. Can't be arsed with wet/dry/wet.

Caffeine_Vampire

I run a 410 dry and 2 x 112's wet but it is a faff.

sjo89

Caffeine_Vampire said:

I run a 410 dry and 2 x 112's wet but it is a faff.

Yeh but do you feel like it’s worth the effort is the real question? Does it translate to the audience?

Caffeine_Vampire

sjo89 said:

Caffeine_Vampire said:

I run a 410 dry and 2 x 112's wet but it is a faff.

Yeh but do you feel like it’s worth the effort is the real question? Does it translate to the audience?

Not gigged this particular iteration but the previous and very similar wdw rig was probably more for my pleasure than the audience. Sound guy liked it.

sjo89

Caffeine_Vampire said:

sjo89 said:

Caffeine_Vampire said:

I run a 410 dry and 2 x 112's wet but it is a faff.

Yeh but do you feel like it’s worth the effort is the real question? Does it translate to the audience?

Not gigged this particular iteration but the previous and very similar wdw rig was probably more for my pleasure than the audience. Sound guy liked it.

I've not gigged anything other than a single amp mono yet - but over covid break I've been experimenting. For sure running two amps, even if dual mono, is a way better sound. I've only got a pair of 1x12 combos so not overly cumbersome to lug around.

Wet/Dry is cool but I defo feel stereo is more immersive, even if its only a very subtle stereo with very mild panning fx/spread - it just sounds so much more hifi to me. 

Also, on the HX stomp, stereo fx are auto summed to mono if only one cable plugged into output jacks so i dont need to create new patches especially for it which i do if running wet dry.

I've a gig in a couple of weeks and I think I'll ask sound guy to just gently pan the amps so as not to create any 'dead spots'.

There's also another guitarist in the band running pretty simple mono rhythm guitar setup so I think it could work really well. Just worried about all the phase issues people mention but struggling to see how that would materialise with my setup.

maltingsaudio

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Sound guys (decent ones) always has for a tech spec at least a week before the gig. So you can prep them for your setup easily enough. Will it cure all issues? No, but it'll alleviate some of the pain.

What I'm contemplating is either wiring my 4x12 in stereo, or getting two 2x12 cabs, stacking them on top of one another, and then using two amps. Mic up each cab, and there you go.

But that would be for pure stereo. Can't be arsed with wet/dry/wet.

True however we reserve the right to put into the room what sounds right from where we are sat

WiresDreamDisasters

maltingsaudio said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Sound guys (decent ones) always has for a tech spec at least a week before the gig. So you can prep them for your setup easily enough. Will it cure all issues? No, but it'll alleviate some of the pain.

What I'm contemplating is either wiring my 4x12 in stereo, or getting two 2x12 cabs, stacking them on top of one another, and then using two amps. Mic up each cab, and there you go.

But that would be for pure stereo. Can't be arsed with wet/dry/wet.

True however we reserve the right to put into the room what sounds right from where we are sat

You might reserve the right, but you've got a job to do - and that is communicate our vision. Not your vision.

EDIT: Sorry, that sounded more arsey than intended. What I mean is, my job on stage is an artsy-fartsy thing, whereas the soundman has a technical one. I'm not saying that sound engineering isn't creative, far from it. But in a live situation I think it's useful when everyone understands their role. When I do live sound (the little I have done!) it isn't my job to judge the tonality of the singer, or to judge whether they're too quiet, or singing properly, etc. My job is to make the best out of the mashed potatoes I've been given.

My philosophy on audio engineering in general is that it's my role to take whatever sound source I've got, and put it in the best light. So I think we'd agree on that.

But when it comes to a stereo-rig, the guitarist is obviously doing that for a reason. That reason should be established before the gig. If I'm doing some mad 'throw the delays around the stage' thing or 'have one delay at a quarter note on the left, and one delay on a whole note on the right' Frippertronics inspired thing, then the soundman needs to know that. If we all rock on up to the show and you just assume it's a rock mix, business as usual, I'm liable to lose half my sound, and the vision for the music will not be delivered correctly.

sjo89

I'm actually wondering about trying wet/wet now. Been experimenting with having delay coming out one amp and reverb out the other and various other combinations. Anyone else tried this? Wouldn't be stereo per se as the amps would be both centre panned. Also means that sound guy can't totally trash my wet or dry signal as both amps have both, just with variations on the wet.