Why do you think the forum has a retention issue?

WiresDreamDisasters

I look at forums like KvR, Gearspace (formally Gearslutz), and The Gear Page, and I don't really see retention problems. Now.... Gearspace and TGP don't really have the contentious sides - no politics and religion on TGP, Gearspace doesn't even have sections for them.

KvR does, and it hasn't affected user retention. In fact KvR is one of the biggest music forums out there, and it's "industry recognised" for lack of a better term. There are a lot of audio devs there, and a lot of new audio devs get their start by hanging out in the DSP sections on there. It has a Hyde Park Corner section where people go to talk all the crap they want, but it has a lot more useful and on topic and current sections too.

It has a guitars section which they added. Manufacturers have sub-forums over there. They do competitions, giveaways, and an entire newsfeed.

It is very advert heavy though.

SPECTRUM001

I still consider myself to a be a newbie (circa eighteen months, though lurking for three years or so) therefore cannot comment on how many peeps are leaving - but I reckon all social media has a regular fall off and sign up rate.

I maintain that this is a really warm place to hang out. Even the spats can be (on the whole) productive and even tempered.

As for being cliquey ? Sure, there are in jokes and obvious friendships present, but you know...that's pretty normal amongst people who have got to know each other (either online or in person). It is the internet, so no-one should take anything too personally. 

There seems to be a core of builders, techs, pros etc with loads of experience about all things guitar - and are happy to help with advice. That is an amazing and valuable resource for those of us without the same skills. I am waiting for the day someone wants advice on their publishing deal, and then I could reciprocate !!!

Is it a concern there isn't enough growth and the forum isn't deemed "important" ?? I suppose if it were slowly dying then it would self-combust, but I cannot see that happening (but perhaps I haven't been here long enough).

Philly_Q

TTony said:

I think it does have a job though, and it's pretty much the job that the original 4 of us decided on, and I think it does the job pretty well.  The job is an online community meeting place for people who have some level of interest in guitars and music more widely.  I wouldn't hazard a guess at the actual %number, but I'd expect a significant minority of members don't come here primarily for the guitar chat.  They come here for all the other chat.  Buying the right toaster is a more important decision than buying the right guitar.
 

We come here because we're vaguely interested in guitars and we stay because we find a bunch of other old twats who can't cope with the modern world.

TimmyO

WiresDreamDisasters said:

@TimmyO - it was raised to me in a discussion with admin recently, and I'm just curious what the "punters" think.

My view is the social element... probably too UK-centric... too boistrous... not very welcoming.. bit cliquey....

But also the musical/gear element... there isn't THAT much of it going on here.... the discussions about gear are pretty cylical... there aren't enough UK gear manufacturers to discuss... and what there is, is hidden away in making & modding and made in the UK, which people possibly aren't predisposed to checking out... 

My perception (which might be wrong) is that this is a forum of UK part-timers... and TGP is a forum of worldwide professionals/part-timers/hobbyists, etc etc.

I agree that I don't think a forum has a "job" as such. And maybe that's part of the problem - people are searching for one...

I think it's a shame that Peach and Andertons got chased off, as it were.

Interesting re too UK-centric - for me that's a plus - it's why there's a point to here in addition to TGP and the like. 

But that phrase also invites (sorry, my work brain kicking in) the question : too UK-centric for what? What is an aim or intent this place has that means it can be "too much" anything with respect to the achievement of it? 

TimmyO

reading the rest of the thread, if the forum is seen to be too argumentative, I reckon that's in large part the pastime of a significant minority. It's less prickly-seeming when you know the participants' online personalities for what they are (the very definition of clique possibly) but there are threads every week that would make a newcomer skip on by I reckon. 

DefaultM

You say no politics or religion on the gear page, but isn't it absolutely full of God and Guns type guys? That's how I remember it.

WiresDreamDisasters

DefaultM said:

You say no politics or religion on the gear page, but isn't it absolutely full of God and Guns type guys? That's how I remember it.

Not really, no. That's a typically British portrayal of TGP. But it isn't really like that. And maybe this is actually an aspect of the UK-centricity of this forum that could potentially put off non-Brits by making them feel excluded ???

Iamnobody

I like this place, I’ve been around since the intermusic days but don’t get ‘too’ involved.

My interest in playing and guitars generally wains with each year that passes. There’s still enough going on (and in the other OT forums) to keep me as an avid reader and more than occasional poster.

I’ve looked at and joined forums for my other various hobbies. This is the only one that I go back to regularly - I think that’s because it’s generally a decent forum to browse on a mobile device and has got a largely good membership.

People make places.  

Is retention an issue?

MrSwanson

WiresDreamDisasters said:

DefaultM said:

You say no politics or religion on the gear page, but isn't it absolutely full of God and Guns type guys? That's how I remember it.

Not really, no. That's a typically British portrayal of TGP. But it isn't really like that. And maybe this is actually an aspect of the UK-centricity of this forum that could potentially put off non-Brits by making them feel excluded ???

I'm sure it was at some point, they've now made a point about no religion/politics. They used to have a thread that was for P&W setups, not sure if that still exists.  

Snags

Serious questions where "we" is clearly primarily the modmins, as they're the ones best placed to know through either messaging or examining the logs on a very slow day:

• how do we know there's any retention issue?
• how do we know if/when people walk, vs. just take a break, vs. just move on in life?
• given one can simply stop logging in, and it's a free place not Big Brother, I'm assuming you don't get a nudge from a modmin if you don't login for 6 months saying "Oi! Where the hell have you been? Is eveything OK? Are you going to attend your exit interview on Monday?"

I would have thought that as with most forums, the majority of people browse without ever signing up. Those that do sign up probably have a specific question to ask, or want classifieds access. Once they've scratched the immediate itch, probably 90% of them don't come back anyway, and it's only a small percentage who will hang around and actually engage/post.

So I'm not sure what useful metrics are available to work out what retention is, and whether it's a problem, and whether there are any consistent causes or factors that choose people to pop in, then pop off never to be seen again. The only ones you're likely to hear about are people flouncing big style for some reason.

Also, given the number of "Account banned for being a previously banned person under a new name" posts in the Admin thread, maybe the retention rate is too high

(edited for typos. Some of them anyway)

EricTheWeary

WiresDreamDisasters said:

DefaultM said:

You say no politics or religion on the gear page, but isn't it absolutely full of God and Guns type guys? That's how I remember it.

Not really, no. That's a typically British portrayal of TGP. But it isn't really like that. And maybe this is actually an aspect of the UK-centricity of this forum that could potentially put off non-Brits by making them feel excluded ???

I never hang out on TGP but I used to on TDPRI. A couple of years ago they all became part of the same group and the moderation became even stricter. I think you can still find God on there ( P&W is a decent percentage of the guitar playing community in the USA) but the Guns have largely gone. I remember on TDPRI  members would regularly post pictures of deer they had shot, that kind of thing. All went. 

DefaultM

It will have been over a decade ago. I remember they all kept talking about P&W, and I thought they were all really in to the album Passion & Warfare by Steve Vai until I realised it meant praise and worship.

fretmeister

The FDP was stuffed with god and guns people. I quit that years ago.

Just a thought though - if people generally go with a forum in their native tongue then it's the USA, UK, and Aus / NZ as the largest pool of potential members.

People gravitate to what feels comfortable and the USA has 330 million people. Americans still, even in this day and age, have a USA is best approach to everything - even patch cables. So they stick with what they know. I suspect people like sticking with their own Time Zones so active stuff happens while they are awake.

When number retention is mentioned is that percentages or actual numbers? If the TGP and TFB lost 1000 members over night the TGP wouldn't even notice.

With more members there is an increased chance of arseholes. We've seen Andertons etc etc get chased away from here, but Basschat hasn't had that problem - Ashdown / Darkglass / Barefaced / Mesa / Tech21 all active members who engage with threads and don't use it just as a sales opportunity.

Maybe bassists are just more easy going?  


Personally I like the smaller forums. There's a chance for a bit of community rather than a musical version of Linked In.

fob

What is the retention rate? Presumably, someone knows or can find out easily enough. How does that compare to fora of comparable size of any interest? What is the membership count and is that increasing or decreasing? Again, how does that compare?

Is the forum any less important than TGP? Smaller I'm sure, and a different geographical demographic but that probably only lessens it's importance to the likes of Fender, Gibson, Martin etc. who measure importance by potential sales. 'Community' often gets brought up here as an abstract but I'd say there's more of one here than on TGP. If membership numbers are seen as a worthy metric then the TGP's size will, inevitably, draw more people in as it will likely show up first on random searches and people will naturally think (correctly, probably) that there is a greater depth of knowledge there. A bit like compound interest their size helps them grow.

Discussions about gear being cyclical? It's a guitar forum - there simply isn't that much innovation in a product that was mature decades ago. Small things, yes, but 'What's the best beginner guitar?', 'School me on Acme strats', 'Have you seen the state of the latest Acme Tele?' are always going to come around again and again - ironically those are probably the threads that draw more people in. That's not peculiar to guitar/instrument fora.

I'm not that fussed that Peach and Andertons were chased off. The price for them staying is outlined above: criticism would not be allowed. I'm sure those running the forum would say that that wouldn't be the case (and mean it) but it would creep in even if it was in the form of self censorship from other members. I remember a couple of years ago there being a big thread about a certain guitar deal run by a retailer and on the back of that success they were going to be a sponsor in some form or other. A couple of comments (possibly even very nasty ones) were enough for them to pull out. Sounds like a shame but I couldn't help thinking at the time that the retailer got the best of both worlds there. A shed-load of publicity (read TRADE) for which they had a convenient excuse not to reciprocate. No law saying they needed to but pretty weak in my opinion.

Edit - there have been a lot of replies in the time it took me to type my too long post.

WiresDreamDisasters

@fob ;

Well I criticised Andertons at one point, in a polite and respectful manner - I said they were box-shifters. The Captain himself jumped on to say he thought that was an unfair comment and put me straight on a few things. It wasn't comments like those that chased them off.

Same for Peach - someone called up the shop and gave them abuse; proper abuse for not giving them a deal purely because they were a member of this forum. I'll never forget that because it's just about the most crass thing to have come out of this forum IMO.

SPECTRUM001

TTony said:

This forum is probably a lot less serious than TGP.  Is that because we don't have (many) full-time professionals here, or do we not have those professionals here  because the forum is less serious?

 

@TTony - do you (or how would you) know there are not many full-time professionals ?

I always got the impression there is quite a level of anonymity within members' posts...and kind of hoped I could unwittingly be discussing as such with unexpected rock royalty !

MikeC

This is a good discussion. and I think that's why I like this site more than others. Eg, good gear for sale by like minded people, healthy scepticism when needed (and moderated when OTT), not focused on pushing product, subjects wider than just guitars (friends in need, etc) - it's just a really nice site.

Retention is not the objective, it's the outcome of all of the above, so isn't really an issue unless the site is running at a loss or the site loses its way. 

TTony

SPECTRUM001 said:

TTony said:

This forum is probably a lot less serious than TGP.  Is that because we don't have (many) full-time professionals here, or do we not have those professionals here  because the forum is less serious?

 

@TTony - do you (or how would you) know there are not many full-time professionals ?

I always got the impression there is quite a level of anonymity within members' posts...and kind of hoped I could unwittingly be discussing as such with unexpected rock royalty !

Only through people identifying themselves as such @SPECTRUM001 ;

And you may well have asked that question of one of the few rock royalties on here!





(ok, not really).

DefaultM

WiresDreamDisasters said:

@fob ;;

Well I criticised Andertons at one point, in a polite and respectful manner - I said they were box-shifters. The Captain himself jumped on to say he thought that was an unfair comment and put me straight on a few things. It wasn't comments like those that chased them off.

Same for Peach - someone called up the shop and gave them abuse; proper abuse for not giving them a deal purely because they were a member of this forum. I'll never forget that because it's just about the most crass thing to have come out of this forum IMO.

That's ridiculous, but Peach have also got an absolutely massive thread on here that's basically a free advert for the shop and how good they are. 
It's not really the forum's fault if one out of thousands of members is the type to call them and yell over nothing. Just put the phone down and think wow what a maniac. Maybe make a joking post about it, which would probably have been received with shock from the members and stories about good service they'd had.

SPECTRUM001

TTony said:

SPECTRUM001 said:

TTony said:

This forum is probably a lot less serious than TGP.  Is that because we don't have (many) full-time professionals here, or do we not have those professionals here  because the forum is less serious?

 

@TTony - do you (or how would you) know there are not many full-time professionals ?

I always got the impression there is quite a level of anonymity within members' posts...and kind of hoped I could unwittingly be discussing as such with unexpected rock royalty !

Only through people identifying themselves as such @SPECTRUM001 ;

And you may well have asked that question of one of the few rock royalties on here!





(ok, not really).

Thanks - and excellent double bluff on your part !!