Are amps dying out at small gigs?

jeztone2

Went to see three bands in the last week or so.

Suede at Rock City:  Full backline, as you’d likely expect.

My mates band in Islington: On a three band bill. But only one band was using trad backline. The others all used Helix’s or those Zoom modeller things I forget the name of. The majority of guitar sounds that night sounded great. Maybe one of the guitars I heard sounded a bit thin. But otherwise I didn’t notice any other guitar sounds. 

Local Blues band in Nottingham: All traditional backline. Sounded great. 

I’ve seen a couple of mentions on YouTube of people abandoning amps to use modellers. Especially metal acts. Is that really the case at small gigs now? I’m not sure I’ve been out enough recently to form an opinion. 

What has everyone else seen? 

Legionreturns

I do sound for a number of venues on the smaller side. Up to 250 / 300 ish bodies. 

I must have done 30-40 bands this year...I can count on one hand the number that were completely digital/ modelling, and probably only a few more that had one or more members using digital. 

Still mostly traditional back line for me. 

jeztone2

Legionreturns said:

I do sound for a number of venues on the smaller side. Up to 250 / 300 ish bodies. 

I must have done 30-40 bands this year...I can count on one hand the number that were completely digital/ modelling, and probably only a few more that had one or more members using digital. 

Still mostly traditional back line for me. 

Interesting. I can't remember where I saw reference to it. But it did make me wonder. I couldn't quite believe it tbh.

mike257

As a touring (and sometimes in-house) engineer, I'm seeing more people than I used to with modellers, but it's by no means a majority. Varies by genre and Kemper/Fractal kit has built a strong foothold in the heavier end of the spectrum.  Seeing a lot of Helix kit, but as likely to find a HX Stomp/Effects in a traditional rig as you are to see a full fat Helix as a rig replacement. 

I expect it'll continue to grow as the tech to do it well improves and becomes more affordable. 

Danny1969

I use a modeller direct onto the PA with IEM's  in a professional tribute band. But only because space in the splitter van used to go up and down the country is very limited, not because I prefer it. 
Personally I think using modellers at small gigs straight into the PA causes more problems than it solves as it means you now need extra centre fill PA. Otherwise the people in the front middle wedged against the stage barrier just hear drums . Using a modeller into a PA speaker as backline just seems bizarre to me, now it's just as bulky as a combo amp. I know people think they now can sound like a black faced Twin or Twead or whatever but does it really ? I've been playing guitar for 35 years and I can't tell your modeller is now doing a perfect impression of a Matchless DC30 so I doubt the audience can. 

They certainly make more sense for large gigs where bands like Mettalica have embraced the tech and cut down on truck space. Modellers do tend to do the very heavy and very clean sound very well too. They also scale well on medium and large systems. I was watching a video someone posted on FB with my POD going through the PA at Grand Central liverpool and it did sound pretty epic. Still miss my amp though. 

EricTheWeary

I can only remember seeing two ‘silent stages.’ One was a sort of metal oompah band (really) and the other was Billy Ocean. In Billy’s case this was the Birmingham Symphony Hall which is probably the best classical music venue in the U.K. with amazing acoustics but those acoustics don’t work well with big amps (well, they do if you don’t want to hear anything else) so a modelling approach would always work better anyway. 

The issue for pub level bands is that the more you go the modelling route the more you have to invest in PA and at that level not everyone has a band member willing to own an expensive PA or quite trusts each another enough to make a joint investment. There’s also a lot of ‘ooh I have to have my amazing valve amp because of the feel and I’m the next Gary Moore don’tcha know, 2 3 4 oh Mustang Sally…’

vasselmeyer

It's entirely possible to do both. I use a BOSS GT-1000 and I take an XLR to the PA and my in-ears and can take a feed out to a power amp and cab. It depends on what the venue wants.

Some of them don't care and we can use decent stage volume and an acoustic kit, but some of the bigger pubs know they have a Health and Safety responsibility to protect their employees' hearing and want it much quieter. For those we use modelling only and an electronic kit.

Cirrus

Personally I think the way a real amp disperses sound on a stage and in a room is the missing bit with modellers. So the question for me becomes "where does that matter and where does it not?"

Ironically, the answer is that it doesn't matter on big stages where you're relying on the amp being miked up and having stage monitors, and where the FOH mix isn't relying on the backline.

On a small stage, in smaller rooms, that's when the sound dispersal from the backline matters and where a modeller can cause problems. What do I mean by that? Well, I think like a producer/ mixer - not just "are things balanced right" but from note to note, chord to chord, is the guitar behaving the way I want it to?

I tried a Helix and FRFR cab, and while I love it for recording I had some problems with lumpy low end in practice environments - some notes/chords would drown out the bass guitar and have the whole stage vibrating, others would lack low end. The attack of notes didn't feel right, I was constantly having to engage my left brain to work out why and what to change to try to fix it.

I changed it out for an AC30 and hey presto, I pretty much always sit where I want to in the mix. I'd rather deal with the compromise of having to run that below its sweet spot* than the problem of trying to get a modeller to feel like a real amp sat behind me.


*My strategy is thus: Have a HX stomp on my board, which has a transparent volume control. If I need to turn that down so low that the ac30 genuinely sounds bad (and that would be very quiet indeed), I have a patch with a modeller on that can be run straight to the PA.


Also as a final point, we are quite visual creatures and I think having a bunch of ostentatious backline around you helps the audience feel the sound viscerally.

paulmapp8306

I've used fractal gear in small venues for 13 years now.

I do go quite traditional into a power and and guitar cab.

I made the jump because I used rack fx anyway (tc gmaj at the time) and I coukd never find an amp I liked across clean, crunch and Lead.  Thete was always compromise.

The fractal route allows me to fine tune the different gain levels to my "in my head" sound and I'm happier for it.

I wouldnt go frfr on stage though but happy to feed the pa (with cab sims) in larger venues.

Reverend

It seems a lot more modern and extreme meal bands going for modellers but its pretty rare in the doom and stoner fields where people want a heavier thump to the sound. Paradise Lost use modelling live because they fly in to gigs a lot. green Lung are the only other band in my field i can think of that seem to use them. 

monquixote

I don't think it's that common for pub bands to use Modellers at the moment. 

It's super common for people like function bands that play a lot of volume limited venues (And also electronic drums), pit bands for theatres, session musicians playing for pop artists and a lot of pro touring bands. 

TheBigDipper

monquixote said:

I don't think it's that common for pub bands to use Modellers at the moment. 

It's super common for people like function bands that play a lot of volume limited venues (And also electronic drums), pit bands for theatres, session musicians playing for pop artists and a lot of pro touring bands. 

And that makes total sense to me. Any band which exists primarily to earn money will want to be the easiest band to employ that they can be. That's being a professional. So they'll alter their approach to suit the venue/employer and do their best to fit in. Most pub bands are enthusiastic amateurs who like to play in a band but want the best experience they can get as players, so they'll carry on with the tools that they enjoy using. Which might be a modeller, or might not.

grappagreen

I'm in a pub band but do use a Kemper..lot's of reasons why but mostly due to practicality rather than sonics. I do play however for the enjoyment of the audience as a primary objective than my own..

DavusPG

I play in a pub band and over the years we have gone from the traditional setup of of valve amps, mic'd cabs and an acoustic kit, to the point we're at now where we are all using modellers, or going direct into our own mixer and PA

I run an AxeFx3, other guitarist a Helix, bassist uses a MarkBass head direct into the mixer and for 90% of gigs or drummer uses his electric kit (full size, not pads, so it looks like the real thing!) with a Roland V Drums module. 

For monitoring we have 3 monitors at the front, the drummer monitors with in ears and we have a bass cab to fill in a little bit of low end on our side of the PA.

We have everything dialled in pretty good, so setup/souncheck is a well drilled operation now. The beauty of the electric kit is that we can play as loud or quietly as the venue requires rather than being dictated by the volume of an acoustic kit. Not sure of the model but it's one of the high end Roland modules and the drums sound incredible, understandably our drummer prefers his acoustic kit though. 

It works for us and we've had nothing but compliments on the sound, mind you it's the culmination of several years of trial and error and tweaking.

Trude

I've been using IEMs for pretty much every gig in the last 3-4 years, and that's the main driver for my current approach to backline.  Essentially the little Quilter 10" tilt-back cab I have on stage is just there for anyone closer than the main speakers, and as a bit of a backup in case my IEMs play up (they never have).  I don't rely on it at all for my own monitoring, and so I'm fairly ambivalent about how loud it is, or whether it's there at all.  The sound in my ears is direct from my Boss GT1000 Core and it sounds as good as any other "real" amp I've had miked up into my ears.

This is after years of using conventional backline with floor monitors.  Apart from the hassle of dragging multiple wedge monitors to every gig, I could never get a good and balanced sound at my playing position without being too loud for the room.  I also always used earplugs (the posh expensive kind with allegedly "flat" response), which can't help but decouple you a bit from the visceral feeling of using a real amp.  So, I eventually went to in-ears, and the move to modellers is just a natural extension of that for me.

Obviously all this is much easier to achieve when you're doing your own sound, and it does take a bit more care in terms of dialling in the PA.  I can understand why many aren't up for making that leap.

firepaulmusic

I’ve gone direct to PA for years now but for some reason I’ve always replaced an amp with an active 10” PA cab behind me. Initially Marshall JMP1, Axe 8, finally Kemper. Thinking about it does this really make sense? I’m quite happy as the sound is coming from where I expect it to and also from my front monitor. Thinking about going in-ear but reckon I’ll still need a cab behind me for the audience at the front of the stage...

Stratavarious

About a third of our gigs we will DI and use e-drums. I use a boss GT.    My gear for either goes to every gig. Digital mixer has the configs all profiled.

Size, volume restrictions, full stage PA already there… plenty of cases where it is ideal.  

Only real choice for theatre work… but no panto this year  

Jota

I do medium sized outdoor stages and go direct from my HX Stomp.
We all use IEM, drums are acoustic but I believe he uses triggers so there's no mics needed.
I never thought giving up my setup with my valve amp until I joined this project and, for this situation, I can't see a better option, although I've suffered from endless tweaking sometimes and that's why, in another band I'm in, I still use a valve amp but we haven't gigged so far. Since it's a style where I can use "my" sound, I prefer having a basic amp sound and adding a couple of effects on top when needed. 

CaseOfAce

Generally still see amps on stage when I check out other cover bands in the local vicinity.
The one thing I have noticed is the profusion of drummer-less bands playing over backing tracks.

thomasw88

I have the capability to do a gig going direct to pa,  but  unless it's called for I will continue to use a valve amp. 

I've had various modellers over the years (Boss, Line 6, Fractal etc) and have always preferred  traditional pedalboard/amp to them.     I don't think they sound as good  (especially for cleaner tones actually) and it doesn't feel the same  as using a nice valve amp to me anyway. 
 Plus there always seem to be a need to tweak the sounds a lot more depending upon the venue in  my experience.

StageStruck

CaseOfAce said:

Generally still see amps on stage when I check out other cover bands in the local vicinity.
The one thing I have noticed is the profusion of drummer-less bands playing over backing tracks.

Solo/Duos with or without backing tracks or acousic based band (with a lead guitar, bass and cajon) are seem to be making up the bulk of the live scene in my locale. There are a few fairly well established bands, but a full band with drummer seems to be a dying breed around the pubs and clubs near me. Amps are still very much in the majority for electric guitars though