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  • LastMantraLastMantra Frets: 2466
    The problem with the way this place is mod'ed and it's rules is it's almost garenteed to become a clique. If it's not already. 
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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 22071
    The problem with the way this place is mod'ed and it's rules is it's almost garenteed to become a clique. If it's not already. 
    Exactly how is it a clique?
    <space for hire>
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24370
    The problem with the way this place is mod'ed and it's rules is it's almost garenteed to become a clique. If it's not already. 
    Exactly how is it a clique?
    And moreover, how should it be mod’ed to ensure it isn’t inevitably a clique, in your opinion?
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  • LastMantraLastMantra Frets: 2466
    edited January 9
    The problem with the way this place is mod'ed and it's rules is it's almost garenteed to become a clique. If it's not already. 
    Exactly how is it a clique?

    Clique is probably not the best word for it but it does seem to attract a particular type of person, and I'd imagine puts off people that don't fit that type. 

    I'm not complaining, just pointing out something I actually thought was pretty obvious. 
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24370
    The problem with the way this place is mod'ed and it's rules is it's almost garenteed to become a clique. If it's not already. 
    Exactly how is it a clique?

    Clique is probably not the best word for it but it does seem to attract a particular type of person, and I'd imagine puts off people that don't fit type. 

    I'm not complaining, just pointing out something I actually thought was pretty obvious. 
    You could argue that music/playing guitar attracts a particular type of person… it’s certainly true in the real world.
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  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 15443
    tFB Trader
    The problem with the way this place is mod'ed and it's rules is it's almost garenteed to become a clique. If it's not already. 
    Exactly how is it a clique?

    Clique is probably not the best word for it but it does seem to attract a particular type of person, and I'd imagine puts off people that don't fit type. 

    I'm not complaining, just pointing out something I actually thought was pretty obvious. 

    Do you mean more like an "Echo Chamber" 

    I think all communities become that to a degree, but the trick is to be one that's somewhat welcoming and tolerant.
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  • vasselmeyervasselmeyer Frets: 3463
    edited January 9
    Emp_Fab said:
    It's because you start threads which are polarising. You're either trolling or are crashingly insensitive to how divisive they are. For whatever reason you start them, in my opinion you're better off doing that on Facebook where bullshit like that belongs,  rather than a guitar forum.
    So what you're suggesting is that people should only openly discuss topics that they are sure everyone else will already agree with ????  Is that your notion of a forum ??  That talking openly about a subject that everyone might not all agree on is to be avoided at all costs because no-one is able to have an adult discussion and express their viewpoints without screaming abuse at each other ?

    Has it really come to that ?  

    No. I'm suggesting that you are either so obtuse that you can't understand what you're provoking or that you are doing it deliberately in order to provoke a reaction that you can then pretend you were misunderstood. As it seems the mods have told you several times to stop doing it, the latter option seems to be the most likely.

    This is mostly a pleasant place and some of the outpourings of generousity for members in need are why it's special. It's moderated quite lightly and, in my opinion, you're probably the cause of quite a lot of work for those mods.

    There are other outlets for this kind of behaviour and, again in my opinion, this forum would be all the better for it if you took your needy, passive aggressive nonsense somewhere else. Your posts don't make you look clever and they're not thought-provoking. They just make you look like a dick.
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  • LastMantraLastMantra Frets: 2466
    edited January 9
    The problem with the way this place is mod'ed and it's rules is it's almost garenteed to become a clique. If it's not already. 
    Exactly how is it a clique?
    And moreover, how should it be mod’ed to ensure it isn’t inevitably a clique, in your opinion?

    I suppose by having strict rules that can't be misinterpreted and a wider selection of mods?

    Again, I'm not complaining here, it's not my forum it's totally up to you guys how you want to run it. 

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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24370
    The problem with the way this place is mod'ed and it's rules is it's almost garenteed to become a clique. If it's not already. 
    Exactly how is it a clique?
    And moreover, how should it be mod’ed to ensure it isn’t inevitably a clique, in your opinion?

    I suppose by having strict rules that can't be misinterpreted and a wider selection of mods?

    You would be amazed by how much time we spend answering rules-lawyering questions already. If you tighten them, add detail etc. then that lawyering increases exponentially. 

    A larger modmin team would mean decisions took much longer as well - as you wait for people to be available and present their opinion. Also, Lee feels bad enough asking a selection of us to give up time to do this already - I would imagine he’d feel worse if there was a larger number. 
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  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 15443
    tFB Trader
    The problem with the way this place is mod'ed and it's rules is it's almost garenteed to become a clique. If it's not already. 
    Exactly how is it a clique?
    And moreover, how should it be mod’ed to ensure it isn’t inevitably a clique, in your opinion?

    I suppose by having strict rules that can't be misinterpreted and a wider selection of mods?


    Think about the whole team of legal people arguing if the Epstein agreement applies to Prince Andrew and you will see why this can't work.
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  • LastMantraLastMantra Frets: 2466
    edited January 9
    The problem with the way this place is mod'ed and it's rules is it's almost garenteed to become a clique. If it's not already. 
    Exactly how is it a clique?
    And moreover, how should it be mod’ed to ensure it isn’t inevitably a clique, in your opinion?

    I suppose by having strict rules that can't be misinterpreted and a wider selection of mods?

    You would be amazed by how much time we spend answering rules-lawyering questions already. If you tighten them, add detail etc. then that lawyering increases exponentially. 

    A larger modmin team would mean decisions took much longer as well - as you wait for people to be available and present their opinion. Also, Lee feels bad enough asking a selection of us to give up time to do this already - I would imagine he’d feel worse if there was a larger number. 

    Fair enough. I'd have thought having set rules and sticking to them would mean less work, but what do I know.

    "Don't be a dick" means nothing really other than mods decide what goes and can be applied in different ways. 
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24370
    The problem with the way this place is mod'ed and it's rules is it's almost garenteed to become a clique. If it's not already. 
    Exactly how is it a clique?
    And moreover, how should it be mod’ed to ensure it isn’t inevitably a clique, in your opinion?

    I suppose by having strict rules that can't be misinterpreted and a wider selection of mods?

    You would be amazed by how much time we spend answering rules-lawyering questions already. If you tighten them, add detail etc. then that lawyering increases exponentially. 

    A larger modmin team would mean decisions took much longer as well - as you wait for people to be available and present their opinion. Also, Lee feels bad enough asking a selection of us to give up time to do this already - I would imagine he’d feel worse if there was a larger number. 

    Fair enough. I'd have thought having set rules and sticking to them would mean less work, but what do I know.
    The closer you define them, the more people pick at them with “but you haven’t specifically said x” or “you haven’t specifically mentioned y” and “what about it x or y when you haven’t covered that scenario” 

    Hence a more generic set of rules that we use to curb behaviour when needed, but giving us the ability to keep it flexible and let discussion happen 
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 6765

    Clique is probably not the best word for it but it does seem to attract a particular type of person ... 
    Internet forums can do that. It’s partly what @monquixote called the echo chamber. It’s also because a forum provides social interaction for people who find it difficult to do elsewhere. That can be good and bad. There have been times when I was living out of a suitcase, and the only guitar related conversations I could get were on predecessors of this forum. On the other hand, it accretes the type of person who’s behaviour wouldn’t be accepted face to face.

    Don’t forget that what you notice are the vocal few. They don’t actually represent the majority of forum members. They’re just noisier than everyone else.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • kinkin Frets: 896
    It's nothing to do with the rules, 95% of the members manage perfectly well not attacking each other every five minutes.
     There are however a number of members who are complete dickheads and no amount of rules will change that.



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  • LastMantraLastMantra Frets: 2466
    The problem with the way this place is mod'ed and it's rules is it's almost garenteed to become a clique. If it's not already. 
    Exactly how is it a clique?
    And moreover, how should it be mod’ed to ensure it isn’t inevitably a clique, in your opinion?

    I suppose by having strict rules that can't be misinterpreted and a wider selection of mods?

    You would be amazed by how much time we spend answering rules-lawyering questions already. If you tighten them, add detail etc. then that lawyering increases exponentially. 

    A larger modmin team would mean decisions took much longer as well - as you wait for people to be available and present their opinion. Also, Lee feels bad enough asking a selection of us to give up time to do this already - I would imagine he’d feel worse if there was a larger number. 

    Fair enough. I'd have thought having set rules and sticking to them would mean less work, but what do I know.
    The closer you define them, the more people pick at them with “but you haven’t specifically said x” or “you haven’t specifically mentioned y” and “what about it x or y when you haven’t covered that scenario” 

    Hence a more generic set of rules that we use to curb behaviour when needed, but giving us the ability to keep it flexible and let discussion happen 

    Sure, but it surely has it's downsides too. 
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 6765
    @kin , and some of those are actually very knowledgeable about guitars and music.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 13060
    by and large, the rules (and implementation thereof) works OK here. The vast majority of the time, when things get shitty it's cos people are going out of their way to be a dick (even if they may not necessarily know that's what they are doing, but that's probably a case for professional help) and they know they are pushing the rules. In cases like that, cos they know what they are doing is against the rules, no extra or tighter rules will work. It's the difference between the letter of the rules and the spirit of the them. If more people abided by the spirit of the rules, then you'd need fewer rules (and mods).

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • LastMantraLastMantra Frets: 2466
    edited January 9
    Roland said:

    Clique is probably not the best word for it but it does seem to attract a particular type of person ... 
    Internet forums can do that. It’s partly what @monquixote called the echo chamber. It’s also because a forum provides social interaction for people who find it difficult to do elsewhere. That can be good and bad. There have been times when I was living out of a suitcase, and the only guitar related conversations I could get were on predecessors of this forum. On the other hand, it accretes the type of person who’s behaviour wouldn’t be accepted face to face.

    Don’t forget that what you notice are the vocal few. They don’t actually represent the majority of forum members. They’re just noisier than everyone else.
    Tbh I was talking about the forum in general. There's not exactly a lot of diversity.
    But I suppose that is just the nature of it and the way it is run. 
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 6765

    Sure, but it surely has it's downsides too. 
    Everything has good and bad points. As far as rules go, the more you have, and the more complicated they are, the harder it is to police them. 

    Don’t forget that the biggest troublemakers are the ones with a lifetime’s experience of seeing how far they can push things. The ones who want attention. The ones who like scoring points. The ones who need to feel victimised. Tighter rules just give them more ammunition. Hence rule 1.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 6765

    Tbh I was talking about the forum in general. There's not exactly a lot of diversity.
    There are a lot of self selecting factors. People who are comfortable with forums. People who are happier talking about guitars than spending time playing them. Then you’ve got people who are put off by misogynist, stereotyping ...

    Again, don’t forget that On and Off Topic areas have different user bases. There’s an overlap, but a lot of people stick to one side or another.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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