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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 22345
    The closer you define them, the more people pick at them with “but you haven’t specifically said x” or “you haven’t specifically mentioned y” and “what about it x or y when you haven’t covered that scenario” 

    Hence a more generic set of rules that we use to curb behaviour when needed, but giving us the ability to keep it flexible and let discussion happen 

    Sure, but it surely has it's downsides too. 
    Yes, it does - mostly that this sort of thing blows up every now and then. Think of it this way:

    Generic, spirit-of-the-forum-based rules: Plenty of freedom, light moderation, a comfy place to be, but some individuals will be high-maintenance and try to get around the rules and rules-lawyer their way through to a ban.
    Masses of strict rules: Less freedom of discussion, no quibbling over rule breaches, lots of typing out of rules that nobody other than modmins will ever read, meaning more will break the rules accidentally and end up banned.

    The first is the kind of place we aim to be - "comfy". The second is the kind of place this forum was intended to be an antidote for - this is a community first and foremost. The trouble is, it only takes a couple of people out of nearly 20,000 to poison it, especially if they have enthusiastic accomplices who - while they aren't breaking the rules and usually don't agree with or even like the troublemakers - manage to amplify the problem to the point where it explodes and becomes a massive rift.

    Naturally, of course, everyone's the hero of their own story and thus can't see themselves in that description.
    <space for hire>
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  • LastMantraLastMantra Frets: 2566
    edited January 10
    Roland said:

    Sure, but it surely has it's downsides too. 
    Everything has good and bad points. As far as rules go, the more you have, and the more complicated they are, the harder it is to police them. 

    Don’t forget that the biggest troublemakers are the ones with a lifetime’s experience of seeing how far they can push things. The ones who want attention. The ones who like scoring points. The ones who need to feel victimised. Tighter rules just give them more ammunition. Hence rule 1.

    I can't argue with any of that but at the same time it doesn't change how I feel about my original point.

    What one person thinks is breaking rule 1 will never be the same for everyone so what it really means is don't do what you think the mods/forum would consider dick behaviour. 
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 6900
    It’s a valid concern
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • vizviz Frets: 9083
    edited January 10
    Edit - didn’t mean to press post, I was trying to delete a draft! Anyway, have a pleasant night everyone, hope tomorrow’s a nice day for you all. 
    he / him
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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 22345
    Roland said:

    Sure, but it surely has it's downsides too. 
    Everything has good and bad points. As far as rules go, the more you have, and the more complicated they are, the harder it is to police them. 

    Don’t forget that the biggest troublemakers are the ones with a lifetime’s experience of seeing how far they can push things. The ones who want attention. The ones who like scoring points. The ones who need to feel victimised. Tighter rules just give them more ammunition. Hence rule 1.

    I can't argue with any of that but at the same time it doesn't change how I feel about my original point.

    What one person thinks is breaking rule 1 will never be the same for everyone so what it really means is don't do what you think the mods/forum would consider dick behaviour. 
    Which is fine - I don't think anybody has ever been banned for a first instance of breaking rule #1; we'll always PM them a warning with an explanation of the problematic behaviour first. After that, mind you, we'll expect them to self-regulate.
    <space for hire>
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  • LastMantraLastMantra Frets: 2566
    edited January 10
    The problem with the way this place is mod'ed and it's rules is it's almost garenteed to become a clique. If it's not already. 
    Exactly how is it a clique?

    Clique is probably not the best word for it but it does seem to attract a particular type of person, and I'd imagine puts off people that don't fit type. 

    I'm not complaining, just pointing out something I actually thought was pretty obvious. 
    You could argue that music/playing guitar attracts a particular type of person… it’s certainly true in the real world.

    Well-off, middle aged white guys?

    I think I've often felt like a bit of an outsider here. I find all the expensive coffee machine, expensive watches, expensive whiskey etc threads a bit off putting as I just don't really relate to any of that.
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24371
    The problem with the way this place is mod'ed and it's rules is it's almost garenteed to become a clique. If it's not already. 
    Exactly how is it a clique?

    Clique is probably not the best word for it but it does seem to attract a particular type of person, and I'd imagine puts off people that don't fit type. 

    I'm not complaining, just pointing out something I actually thought was pretty obvious. 
    You could argue that music/playing guitar attracts a particular type of person… it’s certainly true in the real world.

    Well-off, middle aged white guys?

    I think I've often felt like a bit of an outsider here. I find all the expensive coffee machine, expensive watches, expensive whiskey etc threads a bit off putting as I just don't really relate to any of that.
    I suspect you aren’t the only one.. we really do try to make this place as welcoming for everyone, and you can please some of the people some of the time but…
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  • LastMantraLastMantra Frets: 2566
    edited January 10
    The problem with the way this place is mod'ed and it's rules is it's almost garenteed to become a clique. If it's not already. 
    Exactly how is it a clique?

    Clique is probably not the best word for it but it does seem to attract a particular type of person, and I'd imagine puts off people that don't fit type. 

    I'm not complaining, just pointing out something I actually thought was pretty obvious. 
    You could argue that music/playing guitar attracts a particular type of person… it’s certainly true in the real world.

    Well-off, middle aged white guys?

    I think I've often felt like a bit of an outsider here. I find all the expensive coffee machine, expensive watches, expensive whiskey etc threads a bit off putting as I just don't really relate to any of that.
    I suspect you aren’t the only one.. we really do try to make this place as welcoming for everyone, and you can please some of the people some of the time but...

    I'm sure you do and I still come here and generally enjoy it so it's not all bad 

    Edit; sorry btw I seem to have missed some comments while I was replying. @monquixote yes "echo chamber" would probably be more suitable. 
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  • Winny_PoohWinny_Pooh Frets: 6097
    edited January 10
    See Emp's done it again... made a thread winding up people, about an earlier stupid thread. And we're too nice and dumb, and keep going ahead and reasoning with him politely The guy sucks at guitar but credit where .it's due, he is a troll GOD.

    Either:
    Permaban
    or
    Make him a Empe-rantor subforum like the corona or politics one so he can reign in his own domain without the shit splashing too far out of the bowl.

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  • poopotpoopot Frets: 9078
    See Emp's done it again... made a thread winding up people, about an earlier stupid thread. And we're too nice and dumb, and keep going ahead and reasoning with him politely The guy sucks at guitar but credit where it's due, he's is a troll GOD.

    Wiz’d
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 6900

    Well-off, middle aged white guys?

    I think I've often felt like a bit of an outsider here. I find all the expensive coffee machine, expensive watches, expensive whiskey etc threads a bit off putting as I just don't really relate to any of that.
    You and me both. My interests are making and playing guitars, and playing in a band. Nothing in Off Topic really interests me.

    Nevertheless I appreciate that many of our members do like to talk about things. I can also see the benefit of a space to discuss personal matters in pseudo anonimity.

    What I don’t have time for are people who purposefully create discord. It disrupts discussions, and upsets our wider membership. It’s easy to forget that this vocal minority are just that. A minority.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • Generic, spirit-of-the-forum-based rules: Plenty of freedom, light moderation, a comfy place to be, but some individuals will be high-maintenance and try to get around the rules and rules-lawyer their way through to a ban.
    Masses of strict rules: Less freedom of discussion, no quibbling over rule breaches, lots of typing out of rules that nobody other than modmins will ever read, meaning more will break the rules accidentally and end up banned.

    The first is the kind of place we aim to be - "comfy". The second is the kind of place this forum was intended to be an antidote for - this is a community first and foremost. The trouble is, it only takes a couple of people out of nearly 20,000 to poison it, especially if they have enthusiastic accomplices who - while they aren't breaking the rules and usually don't agree with or even like the troublemakers - manage to amplify the problem to the point where it explodes and becomes a massive rift.

    Naturally, of course, everyone's the hero of their own story and thus can't see themselves in that description.
    Actually I can see myself in that (in the 'accomplices' role, though I'm probably not enthusiastic) and I think it's a really good point which I intend to remember. Rising to the bait (aka feeding the trolls) does make you an accomplice, however much you may feel you are trying to set the record straight. Luckily, being on TGP is useful as it demonstrates what a place is like with more rigid rules: just as prone to discord, but less comfy.
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  • fastonebazfastonebaz Frets: 3016
    +1 in support of @Emp_Fab .  He takes such a beating from a handful of non-mod vigilantes and rarely takes the bait resorting to Rude personal insults like he receives. 

    I found the Germany thread made me think about my own perception of Germany,  what prejudices I held,  how impacted by media,  education,  forum opinions etc my attitude was.  It was an interesting personal journey,  but I chose not to get involved in that thread.  Without it  I wouldn't have taken a few minutes to explore how I really thought about an important subject and whether after some introspection there were any latent issues I ought to reflect more on.  

    I've travelled around there,  have friends there,  worked closely with german's for years.  
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  • poopotpoopot Frets: 9078
    +1 in support of @Emp_Fab .  He takes such a beating from a handful of non-mod vigilantes and rarely takes the bait resorting to Rude personal insults like he receives. 

    You won’t see him rise either.

    he chooses his moments, lobs a grenade in the hole and stands back watching everyone else caught in the fallout…then claims he’s “been misunderstood” a few pages later… Quite a clever way to troll to be fair…

    maybe take away off topic access as as happened to others in the past!…

    None of my business really…don’t care if he’s here on not tbh but it would be nice if he could stop winding everyone up!…

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  • StrangefanStrangefan Frets: 5364
    edited January 10
    In the 6 plus years I have never seen emp post anything guitar related, I don't even know if he owns one. Why post contentious shite if you're not even going to contribute to the main forum? Maybe twitter would suit you more? 
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  • PC_DavePC_Dave Frets: 3309
    poopot said:
    +1 in support of @Emp_Fab .  He takes such a beating from a handful of non-mod vigilantes and rarely takes the bait resorting to Rude personal insults like he receives. 

    You won’t see him rise either.

    he chooses his moments, lobs a grenade in the hole and stands back watching everyone else caught in the fallout…then claims he’s “been misunderstood” a few pages later… Quite a clever way to troll to be fair…

    maybe take away off topic access as as happened to others in the past!…

    None of my business really…don’t care if he’s here on not tbh but it would be nice if he could stop winding everyone up!…

    You seem to care, as you pretty much without fail react to his posts, calling him names and suchlike. The important thing here is that nobody makes you click on the threads, and you can put people on ignore so you can't see their replies. It's a forum to discuss things. Yes, he makes some very odd threads, but you can simply skip over them and get on with your life. You'll feel better for it.
    This week's procrastination forum might be moved to sometime next week.
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  • TheBigDipperTheBigDipper Frets: 3522
    This is a guitar-oriented forum for people who play musical instruments at a multitude of levels and in a multitude of capacities. I like coming here. I like participating.

    It's like a virtual pub. No-one has a right to come in and act however they want if the landlord thinks it has a negative effect on the pub and how the clientele will respond. We've had users who made this forum quite unpleasant at times and we're better for their absence - through their own indifference or otherwise.

    Coming in here requires a bit of respect for those already participating, and for the institution itself. If the landlord thinks your behaviour isn't appropriate then he will have a private word in your ear and it's down to you to listen. It isn't usually appropriate for the landlord to have a public discussion with the rest of the pub about a specific individual and their actions. The landlord may get it wrong and the pub loses all its customers, but it's their call and we can vote with our feet if we want to. 

    This isn't a private members club where we're all equal, have a vote and can change the constitution if we don't like it. 

    Respectfully, people who don't like it should find another pub. Those who are asked into a corner so the landlord can have a quiet word should listen and either modify their behaviour or find another pub.

    The two "rules" that make the biggest difference on here are:

    - no "ad hominen" personal insults
    - don't carry over emotions from one thread into another

    Most of the bad feeling comes when we forget to follow them.

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  • poopotpoopot Frets: 9078
    PC_Dave said:


    You seem to care, as you pretty much without fail react to his posts, calling him names and suchlike. The important thing here is that nobody makes you click on the threads, and you can put people on ignore so you can't see their replies. It's a forum to discuss things. Yes, he makes some very odd threads, but you can simply skip over them and get on with your life. You'll feel better for it.
    Little bit unfair tbh... I wasn't the only one to pull emp up on that thread... I react to the threads that need reacting to... yesterdays anti german tirade needed to be called out imo. It has no place on a guitar forum...

    And yeah, maybe I do care more than i think, It brings the whole forum down and gives a bad impression.

    Maybe I shouldn't care as its not my forum... but at the same time and to use the pub analogy, if there's a drunk in the corner continually being a pain in the arse you would (as suggested above) find another pub!.

    How many folk don't join up because of the random threads posted? more to the point, How many existing members dont log back on because of them?

    wouldn't be so bad if contributions were made to other areas of the forum... Drew was a massive bell end at times but he posted helpful and useful stuff elsewhere... yet we're left with emps trolling????

    and as winnie pointed out... he's done it again... started a ruck and pissed off.
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  • PC_DavePC_Dave Frets: 3309
    edited January 10
    poopot said:
    PC_Dave said:


    You seem to care, as you pretty much without fail react to his posts, calling him names and suchlike. The important thing here is that nobody makes you click on the threads, and you can put people on ignore so you can't see their replies. It's a forum to discuss things. Yes, he makes some very odd threads, but you can simply skip over them and get on with your life. You'll feel better for it.
    Little bit unfair tbh... I wasn't the only one to pull emp up on that thread... I react to the threads that need reacting to... yesterdays anti german tirade needed to be called out imo. It has no place on a guitar forum...

    And yeah, maybe I do care more than i think, It brings the whole forum down and gives a bad impression.

    Maybe I shouldn't care as its not my forum... but at the same time and to use the pub analogy, if there's a drunk in the corner continually being a pain in the arse you would (as suggested above) find another pub!.

    How many folk don't join up because of the random threads posted? more to the point, How many existing members dont log back on because of them?

    wouldn't be so bad if contributions were made to other areas of the forum... Drew was a massive bell end at times but he posted helpful and useful stuff elsewhere... yet we're left with emps trolling????

    and as winnie pointed out... he's done it again... started a ruck and pissed off.
    I get all that, but your reacting to it isn't going to make it go away or stop it from happening, it's just going to annoy you. If you don't like something, flag it and/or PM the mods and let them do their job - they're the ones that make and enforce the rules. If people don't sign up to the forum because of it, then that's their decision. If a strange thread pops up and no one reacts to it apart from flagging it, it will quickly disappear and everyone can get on with their lives and carry on bashing Chappers and JoBo. 

    PS - can someone please buy the guitars I have for sale please?
    This week's procrastination forum might be moved to sometime next week.
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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 7330
    tFB Trader
    Emp_Fab said:
    It's because you start threads which are polarising. You're either trolling or are crashingly insensitive to how divisive they are. For whatever reason you start them, in my opinion you're better off doing that on Facebook where bullshit like that belongs,  rather than a guitar forum.
    So what you're suggesting is that people should only openly discuss topics that they are sure everyone else will already agree with ????  Is that your notion of a forum ??  That talking openly about a subject that everyone might not all agree on is to be avoided at all costs because no-one is able to have an adult discussion and express their viewpoints without screaming abuse at each other ?

    Has it really come to that ?   :/
    How fucking dare you. Don’t you even try to pretend that your xenophobic posting was intended to generate a healthy conversation. You knew exactly what you were doing. If you have such strong opinions on modern day Germans/Germany there are a few Union Jack waving political parties that would give you a few thumbs up on social media for your bullshit. 

    But for me, the bigger disappointment is that the thread remained in plain sight and imo that is a poor reflection on the forum in general. 

    There is such a thing as “free speech”, this is certainly not the time or place to be playing that card. 

    I wonder how your post would have been received if it involved homophobia or full ok racism? 

    This place isn’t big enough for you and me to post side by side, good luck.

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