P90 Pickups In Humbucker-Sized Enclosure

BillDL

I have only ever owned two "P90"-equipped guitars.  One was the LP Junior type with single dog-ear P90 and the other was a double cut LP Special type with two soapbar P90s.  Neither of them were Gibsons, but they were what I thought of as good quality copies.  Obviously neither of them had Gibson P90 pickups in them, so my experience of what "the real P90 sound" is probably quite limited.  I do know that the physical dimensions of the coil and the magnet placement have a large bearing on why a P90 sounds different from a standard fender style single coil and a humbucker.

Because I spent so many years playing Fender type guitars and only had one Gibson type guitar during those years i haven't really thought at all about P90s.  I did, however, buy a few Gibson type guitars fairly recently and have wondered about the P90 sound.

Each time I am buying parts from AxeTec I see their "Alchemist" pickup

https://www.axetec.co.uk/guitar_parts_uk_081.htm

that they say gives "the classic P90 sound in a humbucker format", and I wonder whether they really do sound anything like a P90.  I am toying with the idea of testing one of my LP copy guitars with these drop-in replacements, and even if they give a semblance of a P90 sound it would give me a different guitar.  One thing I am certain of is that I do not have enough disposable income to start buying expensive pickups, and even a pseudo-P90 sound would be enough of a change between single coils and humbuckers.

Has anybody tried out these particular pickups or any of the more budget-conscious pickups of this type and do they sound close enough to a P90 to qualify as being quite different from an ordinary single coil?

chromatuna

I have had the Alchemists and the Tonerider Rebel 90s and like the latter much better, still have them. The Alchemists are nice single coil sounding pickups but lack the power of a P90, the Toneriders correct that although because they are more powerful and have metal covers you might want to experiment with smaller tone caps to extract a little more zing.

I have also had experience with Alegrees and Seymour Duncan Phat Cats in the humbucker sized format and have Gibson P90s in a Les Paul Special. None of the covered ones sound exactly like a P90 (Oil City doesn’t offered covered ones for this reason) but for me the Toneriders are in the ballpark and sound great in their own way. In that price range I prefer them to IronGear

Funkfingers

Oil City Pickups' humbucker-sized P90s have open-topped metal covers. (So did Gibson P94s.) This minimises the negative effects of the metal on the magnetic field. 

IMO, the only P90s that sound right under metal covers are ES330/Casino types.

Seymour Duncan has their P-Rails pickups. These make a decent stab at both humbucker and P90 tones (plus two less successful others).

Alegree Chameleon humbuckers are intended to be similarly versatile. Probably best to PM the man himself for a proper explanation.

BillDL

Thank you for your insight and suggestions gentlemen.  Yes, I wondered about the metal covers.  I realise that Gibson used them, but I wasn't sure how many models had them.  To be honest I really couldn't justify the cost of Seymour Duncan, Alegree, or Oil City pickups. (sorry OilCityPickups if you are reading this)  My budget would be much higher IF I was playing professionally.  Surprisingly the Tonerider Rebel 90s are not that much more expensive than the IronGear Alchemist 90, and using the volume knob on the guitar seems a better idea to me than having to boost the amp to compensate for the lower power output some or most of the time.

I realise that DC Resistance isn't the only way to gauge a pickup's output, but there is quite a distinct difference.  The Tonerider ones seem just about right to me for money and output. Not a tiger meat vindaloo, but not a potato and cauliflower korma either.

In ascending order of DC resistance:

IronGear Alchemist Alnico II humbucker sized P90 (metal cover) £67 a pair:
Bridge: 7.6 kOhm
Neck: 5.3 kOhm

Alegree Sea Smoke Alnico II humbucker sized P90 (metal cover) £120 a pair:
Bridge: 8 kOhm
Neck: 7.5 kOhm

Oil City Mighty Ninety Alnico V uncovered humbucker sized P90 £175 a pair:
Bridge: 8 kOhm
Neck: 7.5 kOhm

Seymour Duncan Phat Cat Alnico II humbucker sized P90 (metal cover) Over £180 a pair:
Bridge: 8.5 kOhm
Neck: 8 kOhm

Tonerider Rebel 90 Alnico II humbucker sized P90 (metal cover) £90 a pair:
Bridge: 9.3 kOhm
Neck: 8.4k kOhm

Alegree Desert Dew Alnico V humbucker sized P90 (metal cover) £110 a pair:
Bridge: 10.5 kOhm
Neck: 8.3 kOhm

i realise that you can choose your own options for the Alegree pickups and that there are other "standard" models by name, but they are still more than I can justify spending (at the moment anyway).  Sorry Alegree if you are reading this.

BillDL

Hmmm.  I missed the menu option on the Alegree site for the "Old Timer" pickups at £20 each or 12.5% off for the pair at £35 and described as "your quick ticket to getting P90-like tones from a guitar designed for humbuckers":

Fat Boy Alnico II 8k neck and bridge: https://www.alegree.co.uk/collections/old-timer-pickups/products/old-timer-smooth-humbucker-sized-p90?variant=31922146607182

Jazz Box Alnico V 8k neck and bridge: https://www.alegree.co.uk/collections/old-timer-pickups/products/old-timer-sharp-humbucker-sized-p90s?variant=31922148245582

Going by the other items like bodies, necks, electricals, etc on the site I can't imagine they would be selling real cheapo crap, and I wonder whether these might be very similar to the AxeTec Alchemist pickups i.e. a "house brand" made to specifications by an OEM and vetted by the seller.

Funkfingers

Do not forget that DC resistance meter readings are not a direct representation of absolute pickup output. The magnet strength, coil wire gauge, number of turns and winding tension are all factors.

BillDL

I don't suppose there really is a way of knowing the true output without knowing specifications of the factors you have mentioned.  I've read some pickup specs where they quote DC Resistance in kOhms and Inductance in Henries in the real AC world, but I'm sure you would need parameters like wire thickness and length, magnet strength, etc to calculate the inductance if the manufacturer or seller didn't show this in the specs.

BillDL

Just an update.  I completely forgot that I still had a £30 Amazon gift voucher to use, so I bought a set of Vanson branded HB90 black open-topped Alnico V 7.5k "P90s" in chrome humbucker sized side enclosures for £36.  I am under no illusions as to what they are, i.e. mass produced pickups made by a Chinese OEM containing the same components as many other own brand pickups.  In all probability the Artec version of the same pickup format contains all the same parts from the same factory.  I have had some Vanson pickups before though, and I felt that they were pretty good quality for the price and sounded better than expected.

I'll stick them into a guitar and see whether I like the pseudo P90 sound over humbuckers.  If I do I might pay more for others (perhaps Alnico II) for a more expensive guitar or buy a P90 equipped guitar down the line when (or if) I can afford to do so.

rze99

Only have experience of Phat Cats. They are great but also really pricey. Not precisely the same tone as my P90s but that could be case they are on a Tele with a Tele bridge set-up. This guitar records wonderfully. Details here.

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/149667/ngd-black-double-bound-custom-telecaster-with-p90s-custom-build/p1

BillDL

That's a really nice looking guitar you fitted the pickups to.

Dave_Mc

BillDL said:

I don't suppose there really is a way of knowing the true output without knowing specifications of the factors you have mentioned.  I've read some pickup specs where they quote DC Resistance in kOhms and Inductance in Henries in the real AC world, but I'm sure you would need parameters like wire thickness and length, magnet strength, etc to calculate the inductance if the manufacturer or seller didn't show this in the specs.

Depending on the pickup's specs, you can often make an educated guess. For example, most vintage-style pickups will usually use 42 gauge wire (apart maybe from a Tele neck pickup or broadcaster-style bridge pickup). If a humbucker is around 7-8k and a PAF-type, it's probably using 42 gauge wire, and you'll usually be told what magnet it uses as well. You shouldn't be *that* surprised at its output... I think.   It's become quite fashionable to act like you can't know how a pickup will sound *at all* from specs and I don't think that's true (just to be clear, I don't think @Funkfingers was doing this). I don't agree... you usually should have a rough idea, and there are certain things you can infer from the spec... not being able to be 100% sure is not the same as not knowing anything.