Adding veneer to the guitar

Jazzthat

I have been thinking to redo the top of my Yamaha Pacifica , but i have always thought , that it'd be better left alone as it was a birthday present from my wife .

Unlike my wife this one got some beating to it and some heavy gauges here and there .
I was thinking to get some wicked top I like, drop it on top and finish it the way feel is cool .

So the question is , is it  easy enough  to add veneer ( after skimming the top off ) to top of the guitar  ?
How do you go about to cut out all slots ,pockets and holes once a veneer is glued in ?

mart

@Andyjr1515
E.g. https://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/94502/finished-pics-a-quick-lighten-and-veneer-job#latest

Kittyfrisk

Sounds like an excursion into a world of potential effort, pain & wasted money that could result in a useless guitar.
As you said, leave it alone & enjoy it for what it is & all the memories you have.

Jazzthat

Kittyfrisk said:

Sounds like an excursion into a world of potential effort, pain & wasted money that could result in a useless guitar.
As you said, leave it alone & enjoy it for what it is & all the memories you have.

There is that

WezV

Easy, no.  Its a skill that takes some learning to do really well. 


If you fancy trying it, do it on something without sentimental value first, even if its just a scrap £40 body you don't use for an actual build.

BillDL

What model of Pacifica?

I don't think any of them have body binding and instead have simple rounded over edges and the Fender style forearm chamfer that most Strat styled guitars have.  How and where would you neatly stop the veneer and then sand it down so there was no protruding edge left without damaging the existing lacquer on the rounded over edge of the body?  If you have ever tried to make your own multi-ply pickguard and chamfer the edges so that you have a uniform thickness of the different coloured plies around the edge you will know what I'm talking about.

It might be a whole lot easier on one of the natural finish Pacificas, but still not easy.

The Pacificas that come with figured veneer have tinted semi-translucent lacquer to disguise where the veneer has been feathered to an edge just as the sides start their rounded corners.  This would be VERY difficult to achieve to any satisfactory visual standard on a guitar that already has lacquered sides, even if you sanded all the lacquer off the top down to the bare wood.

Gluing on veneer has its own challenges.  Too much ordinary "white" wood glue and veneer gets too wet and bubbles or wrinkles, and too little and it might not stick uniformly.  If you used a non water-based or drier form of glue you might not get enough setting time to hold the veneer down flat all over before the glue starts setting and you could get air bubbles, or else cleanup of the oozed glue could be difficult.  You would have to find a way of clamping it in place ALL OVER the top at one time with uniform pressure leaving no gaps, and that includes the angled forearm cutaway.

I have done this on two NEW BUILD guitars by (a) creating a mould of the guitar top with very fine grade industrial two-pack resin expanding foam that I then placed multiple heavy objects on top of - not too successful, and (b) greaseproof paper and then several of those heavy sand-filled "beanbags" that electricians and network engineers use to pin down cables as they work - success.  I was able to disguise the feathered edges of the veneer using stain to match the sides and then blended into a "burst" on the top (Warmoth have a name for this when it's not a proper full face burst), but doing this on a guitar that is already lacquered would (in my opinion) be very difficult to do to any satisfactory level without lots of practice.

I would be curious to know how @Andyjr1515 glued on the already warped veneer in the bass featured in the earlier link.  I see a little heat iron alongside the body with the veneer laid on top and it looks as though the veneer was dampened and then ironed on the body to flatten it so it would be easier to glue, but I would be curious to know what glue he used and how it was held down to dry.

Andyjr1515

In terms of @Jazzthat 's question, I agree with @WezV ;

Like a lot of things, while it's actually not overly difficult - and needn't need a lot of equipment - it does, nevertheless, require a number of learned skills.  And learning skills are best not done on something that matters. 

Best thing would be to pick up a wreck on ebay and try that out first.

Ref @BillDL 's question:
There are a number of different ways of veneering, but the two most popular methods are using a vacuum bag or ironing it on. 

I personally use the iron-on technique.  I've done a few threads where I go into a bit of detail of how I go about it - I'll see if I can find one - but basically: you use a decent quality PVA wood glue (I favour the Evo-stick green bottled wood glue found in most DIY stores) and coat both the guitar body and veneer separately; let it fully dry; position it; take a hot iron and iron the veneer to the body.  The heat melts the two layer of glue into one, the iron flattens the veneer while it's heating it, and when the iron is lifted, the glue solidifies again and the bond is complete.  There are tips, tricks and techniques involved, of course.

With the vacuum bag approach, you apply the glue wet, position the veneer and body in the bag, apply the vacuum and leave it evacuated until the glue has cured.  Standard wood glues can be used and there are specialist veneer glues available too.

Andyjr1515

Andyjr1515 said:

Best thing would be to pick up a wreck on ebay and try that out first.

...and if you do, go for a fully finished one, not an unfinished kit body.  The reason is that one of the critical, and often most difficult, things is actually getting the finish fully off. 

And especially, but not exclusively, Yamahas.  You scrape off the top coloured surface pretty easily and think 'well, that wasn't so bad'.  But what you take to be the wood underneath is often not wood at all, but a clear coat of one of the hardest substances known to man.  And getting that off can break the will of the strongest of us!

BillDL

Thanks for the full explanation Andyjr1515.  I've seen the vacuum bag system being used a lot by luthiers.  An excellent way of applying uniform pressure but not really something for a hobbyist to consider buying unless considering quite a lot of jobs in the future.  I'm glad you explained your iron on method.  I wish I had known that 20 years ago.  I know you can melt PVA glue quite easily, but I wasn't aware that it would stick again properly when melted.

Andyjr1515

BillDL said:

Thanks for the full explanation Andyjr1515.  I've seen the vacuum bag system being used a lot by luthiers.  An excellent way of applying uniform pressure but not really something for a hobbyist to consider buying unless considering quite a lot of jobs in the future.  I'm glad you explained your iron on method.  I wish I had known that 20 years ago.  I know you can melt PVA glue quite easily, but I wasn't aware that it would stick again properly when melted.

No problem.

I've found the thread but it is so old that the photo links no longer work.  I'll see if I can find the original photos and copy and paste the text.

Yes - the melt and stick is repeatable, too.  So - as long as there is sufficient glue there - if you find an area lifted, you can re-iron.

Jazzthat

Thanks for all replies .
Given all the details , I can see clearly that it is not easy at all , and requires a lot of practice beforehand .

I might need to give up on this idea and perhaps buy a wreck one like suggested and experiment for a while on it untill I know i could pull this off without risking loosing the valuable guitar .

Andyjr1515

If it's of any help, this is a copy and paste of a thread I did of the ironing technique a few years ago on another forum.  This assumes that the body has been already stripped and sanded right down to the wood.

The equipment needed is basic:

Household iron

Sharp modelling knife

Scissors

Standard decorators small gloss foam roller and tray

Decent quality PVA wood glue.  I would avoid Titebond Original - it's too thick and dries too hard.  

A fine water spray pump.  The travel perfume atomisers available widely in pound shops and bargain drugstores are ideal.  

A board to cover the dining table!

You can see most of the equipment in this shot here.  I use a small aeromodelling heatshrink iron, but a household iron (run dry - no steam!) works absolutely fine:

 

The example I'm going to show below is a single veneer sheet.  Bookmatching is also fine (and the majority of what I do).

The principle is this.  We are going to IRON ON the veneer.  We put a thin covering of PVA on the body and the veneer; let it dry, then iron it on!  

FIRST TIP is to do a template so you can re-find the voids and holes once you've covered them with veneer.  All I do is run round the outlines on a piece of paper with my thumbnail:

Cut the veneer with scissors to a shape an inch or so (c30mm)  larger all round than the body shape 

 

Then on goes the PVA onto the body and the veneer - using the foam roller gives a nice even finish.  Make sure the edges, particularly, have a decent covering:

  

SECOND TIP: use the fine atomiser (you can see a cheap travel one in the above shot) to pop a very fine spray of water on the opposite side of the veneer immediately after the glue has gone on - the moisture from the glue makes the back of the veneer expand rapidly and it will start curling immediately...the fine spray on the other side counteracts it and it will flatten out.  

Wait the 20 or so minutes until both veneer and body are touch dry then position the veneer on and get the pre-heated iron out.

 

 Use a hot setting on the iron.  Place the veneer carefully in position. Then, if it's a single sheet, iron from the middle out.  If it's book-matched, do one side at a time and secure the middle join line first then fan out from there.  Firm pressure and trying to progress outwards avoiding kinks and creases - just as you would iron a sheet! 

THIRD TIP: to help the glue to grab while it's cooling, it's sometimes helpful to heat it up, then remove the iron and press down firmly with a duster or clean rag 

 

 FOURTH TIP: the great thing with this is that - as long as there is glue there - the melt and stick process is completely repeatable.  If you have a slight bubble in the veneer after it has cooled, then you can reapply the iron, heat it up and press down with your duster/rag until it cools and holds (usually just 10-15 seconds) 

 

Work the iron progressively round the edge line, securing the edges and forming the veneer round - it is VERY important that the edges are properly secure before you do the final trim!

Here was mine after the first pass:

The dry PVA makes the veneer quite leathery and much easier to handle.  Before final trimming, it is sometimes easier to take a bit of the excess off.  You can use a very sharp modelling knife or scissors

Now for the final trimming.  I use disposable modelling knives - they are sharp, they are rigid and the long blade allows you to 'saw' the veneer where appropriate.

FIFTH TIP: use the body itself as the template, pierce the veneer overlap with the blade and rest the blade (at the required angle) on the body so the body stops the blade digging in:

TIP SIX: cut in the direction where veneer grain tear will take the blade AWAY from the body, not into it.  Above is one example.  At the waist areas, cut towards the middle from either side to achieve the same thing:

When the outline is trimmed, go round it again with the iron - it is crucial that the edges are secure.

 

We now have a shape.

The main voids are pretty easy to find because they sound hollow - time to chuck the first disposable and get a fresh one!  This is why I use disposables...to try to use the same blade is very false economy for this bit.

 

Go over the void edges again with the iron.  Pierce the blade in the centre and, with the blade vertical, cut towards the body wood.  Then, do the same - use the body as your blade guide.  Work carefully - it's easy to tear out a bit of veneer here.

 

When the main voids are cut, this is where the paper template with the outlines impressed into it comes into its own  

...and hey presto, it's done, ready for the edge sanding:

. 
It is important that the edges are smoothly feathered into the body wood and that ALL the PVA at the edges is removed from the body wood - otherwise the PVA will show up white as soon as any stain or finish is put on.

The easiest way is to take a sanding block and sand around the complete edge in this direction:


The same goes for the veneer surface as well - make sure that any squeeze through of the PVA through the veneer voids is also sanded.

And that's basically it.  The guitar shown on the bulk of the photos above was stained and varnished and ended up looking like this:


So that's basically the technique.  There is quite a bit of learning of the skills using test pieces and trial and error (which is why you are wise, @Jazzthat ; to try it out with a wreck before anything that matters), and there are numerous variations, such as bookmatching, where other techniques and tips are important, but the above probably covers the basics.

Bear also in mind that any mod like this - however much it improves the look - will most likely lower the resale value against an unmodded (even when bashed about) original.

Jazzthat

Wow @Andyjr1515 , that's a great job on that guitar ! 
I will have a good read later on and see if I still want to go ahead at some point .
Thanks for you time to showing it .