Pre CBS Strats - Or Not

blueskunk

https://youtu.be/ysBeLKf8tV8

Anyone else seen this? I am not sure this is allowed so mods may delete. As long as they are sold as what they are and not passed off as “real” ones I suppose it’s ok. 

Sassafras

Allegedly, their best customer was Musicground.
I don't think exact replicas are ever OK.

blueskunk

Sassafras said:

Allegedly, their best customer was Musicground.
I don't think exact replicas are ever OK.

Fair enough. There seems to be an argument of “we can send people the to Moon, why can’t be have exactly the same vintage gear”. 

I have never owned one and could never afford one I am guessing. 

ThePrettyDamned

If they have a logo, they're illegal. There isn't a grey area here.

Likewise with the popularity of "chibson" guitars. A few years back people got all excited about being able to buy fake gibsons off aliexpress. "we won't sell them on so it's okay" - no, it's not, and guess what? They're flooding the marketplace now.

Vintage guitars is not a good place to shop! 

ICBM

Over the last few years I've completely lost interest in vintage guitars, despite having owned a lot of pretty nice ones in the past. I'd much rather have a modern one that isn't pretending to be old and avoid all the bullshit and potential financial loss.

And no, it is very much not OK to sell one with a fake logo, even with full disclaimers - you never know what the buyer is going to do with it.

TeleMaster

As someone with one, these videos fill me with dread.  

I’ve got provenance and multiple appraisals so I know mine is real, but now that I’ve done it I probably won’t be dipping my toe in the murky waters again. 

blueskunk

ThePrettyDamned said:

If they have a logo, they're illegal. There isn't a grey area here.

Likewise with the popularity of "chibson" guitars. A few years back people got all excited about being able to buy fake gibsons off aliexpress. "we won't sell them on so it's okay" - no, it's not, and guess what? They're flooding the marketplace now.

Vintage guitars is not a good place to shop! 

I think we accepted the Chibsons could be pretty low on quality. These folks are saying everything is dead on for the same guitars from that time period, using the same machinery, old woods, same screws, pickup depth etc etc etc even copying some of the well know fuck ups !! 

On a side note, I like this guy and watched a few of his videos recently. He “rumbled” Paul David and the Hendrix Strat which apparently wasn’t a Hendrix Strat. 

lustycourtier

blueskunk said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

If they have a logo, they're illegal. There isn't a grey area here.

Likewise with the popularity of "chibson" guitars. A few years back people got all excited about being able to buy fake gibsons off aliexpress. "we won't sell them on so it's okay" - no, it's not, and guess what? They're flooding the marketplace now.

Vintage guitars is not a good place to shop! 

I think we accepted the Chibsons could be pretty low on quality. These folks are saying everything is dead on for the same guitars from that time period, using the same machinery, old woods, same screws, pickup depth etc etc etc even copying some of the well know fuck ups !! 

On a side note, I like this guy and watched a few of his videos recently. He “rumbled” Paul David and the Hendrix Strat which apparently wasn’t a Hendrix Strat. 

The Paul David strat was clear to everyone from the start. Bonkers he got involved and has damaged his reputation sadly 

blueskunk

lustycourtier said:

blueskunk said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

If they have a logo, they're illegal. There isn't a grey area here.

Likewise with the popularity of "chibson" guitars. A few years back people got all excited about being able to buy fake gibsons off aliexpress. "we won't sell them on so it's okay" - no, it's not, and guess what? They're flooding the marketplace now.

Vintage guitars is not a good place to shop! 

I think we accepted the Chibsons could be pretty low on quality. These folks are saying everything is dead on for the same guitars from that time period, using the same machinery, old woods, same screws, pickup depth etc etc etc even copying some of the well know fuck ups !! 

On a side note, I like this guy and watched a few of his videos recently. He “rumbled” Paul David and the Hendrix Strat which apparently wasn’t a Hendrix Strat. 

The Paul David strat was clear to everyone from the start. Bonkers he got involved and has damaged his reputation sadly 

Totally agree on his reputation taking a hit. I was clueless either way as to it being genuine. Dont know enough about the guitar. 

duotone

Really interesting video, shame those guitars are not judged on their own merit.

TeleMaster

lustycourtier said:

blueskunk said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

If they have a logo, they're illegal. There isn't a grey area here.

Likewise with the popularity of "chibson" guitars. A few years back people got all excited about being able to buy fake gibsons off aliexpress. "we won't sell them on so it's okay" - no, it's not, and guess what? They're flooding the marketplace now.

Vintage guitars is not a good place to shop! 

I think we accepted the Chibsons could be pretty low on quality. These folks are saying everything is dead on for the same guitars from that time period, using the same machinery, old woods, same screws, pickup depth etc etc etc even copying some of the well know fuck ups !! 

On a side note, I like this guy and watched a few of his videos recently. He “rumbled” Paul David and the Hendrix Strat which apparently wasn’t a Hendrix Strat. 

The Paul David strat was clear to everyone from the start. Bonkers he got involved and has damaged his reputation sadly 

I agree. All the talk about the energy coming off it, the sun coming through the window, it all seems so ridiculous now. I know the guy was just trying to sell the video and talk poetically about the guitar but it came across as ridiculous even before it turned out to be a fake. 

I feel for him but that whole thing was so contrived. 

blueskunk

duotone said:

Really interesting video, shame those guitars are not judged on their own merit.

Agreed. They seem to be very serious about getting everything correct based on original designs etc. Not just cack handed partcasters. 

I don’t think I was trying to start the age old debate again, more interested in the extreme attention to detail for creating these guitars.  

Devil#20

I wonder if they put period correct serial numbers on them too. Just plain wrong really. A fake is a fake no matter how good it is. Queers the pitch for somebody seeking out a true vintage instrument.  

Voxman

So let's be brutally honest here, no one is going to this level of incredible detail or going to spend $15,000 unless it has authentic Fender logos so I think we can take that as read. 

Moral and legal issues aside you have to take your hat off to the sheer skill, unbelievable fastidious detail, and sheer hard work to make something like this. I certainly wouldn't call it easy.

Now, if someone wanted the genuine experience of owning a vintage Strat at a realistic price, and strictly for their own use, I can see the appeal ( I've already put my order in for a 1961 Strat, rosewood board in aged lake placid blue where the metallic flakes give it a lovely more turquoise colour! ). 

But as has been said the issue comes with these then being sold by someone as bona fide vintage and that can't be controlled.  But, being a cynical bugger, if it is that indistinguishable from the 'real thing' maybe you'd get a better guitar than some of the more discoverable fakes that are around!

And being completely devils advocate here, if it is genuinely 100% indistinguishable from a bona fide pre cbs ...and I realise how contentious this is going to sound....even if someone bought it at vintage silly money prices...would it really matter if for all intents and purposes it was a pre cbs strat, it played and sounded like one, and no one could ever tell it wasn't legit?

So, maybe the only protection is to go for carbon dating or something!  

Anyway, I'm not worried because the nearest I'll ever get to owning a true pre cbs Strat is a Fender Custom Shop. Even if I could afford a pre cbs Strat I just couldn't trust it was 100% legit anyway. 

I wonder if these guys supply vintage road worn cases that are made to the same standards?  

Winny_Pooh

The thing is, the wood is not the same and more importantly,while you can find the same grade steel, IMO you can't cast magnets the same way nor create 42/43 gauge wire. No one can

digitalscream

blueskunk said:

https://youtu.be/ysBeLKf8tV8

Anyone else seen this? I am not sure this is allowed so mods may delete. As long as they are sold as what they are and not passed off as “real” ones I suppose it’s ok. 

Nope. If it bears a logo representing anybody but the person/company who made it, it's illegal to sell in the UK, and if reported will end up siezed and used as firewood.

I mean...FFS. If you make something amazing, put your own sodding name on it. It's not difficult.

Kittyfrisk

Winny_Pooh said:

The thing is, the wood is not the same and more importantly,while you can find the same grade steel, IMO you can't cast magnets the same way nor create 42/43 gauge wire. No one can

Wood never was the same... but not better or worse.  It is a lovely natural material (shock horror!).
As for not being able to reproduce common, easily replicated, cheaply manufactured items like magnets..  no, just no.
If man made it, man can remake it, cost implications may apply & can cost you lot's of money tokens, but it is do-able & not magick.

matt_sefton

Just imagine if they put all that time, effort, skill and knowledge into making something original. Now that would be impressive. This is about money and deception, pure and simple. 

RaymondLin

Winny_Pooh said:

The thing is, the wood is not the same and more importantly,while you can find the same grade steel, IMO you can't cast magnets the same way nor create 42/43 gauge wire. No one can

We landed a robot on Mars which we can remote control, we can make a wire.

Thinking like this really irrates me because it is so irrational.  Human engineering did not peak in the 50’s.  I am typing this on a computer (phone) less than half an inch thick.

And you are telling me we can’t make a wire?

Can you imagine how dumb we are not be able to do that?  You just need to pay someone enough to worth their while.

As for wood, it’s organic, it’s like no 2 humans are the same except twins….  Although…did you know all the Metasequoia in the US are from a handful trees originally found in China in 1941?  So the genetics of all those trees in the US can be traced back quite easily.

wellsyboy

I have a Bravewood strat that I acquired in a trade and I think it is a wonderful guitar - but I do agree with some of the comments on here and if I did ever sell it I would remove the logo from the headstock - actually I would probably have it professionally removed to avoid unecessarily damaging the rest of the finish on the headstock.

blueskunk

@wellsyboy Excuse my ignorance, when you say you would remove the logo, why? Does it say Fender?