Gloss Osmo or Ronseal - an experiment

Andyjr1515

Don't get me wrong - I love many/most of the Osmo Polyx products. 

Their satin 3032 and the thinner 1101 produce amongst some of the best satin finishes in absolute terms but are also amongst the easiest to apply.  They are a bedroom-builders' godsend.  Wipe it on and it looks great!

Their 3044 RAW satin version really can - especially for light coloured timbers - produce a finish the colour of the freshly sanded wood.  And again, wipe-on.  Easy.  Low odour.  Tough.

And so their 3011 Gloss version has to be worth a try?  Well, yes, worth a try, but...

The 'but' is because - certainly for guitars - it seems to suffer the same problem the widely available low-volatile household gloss paints do.  Yes, those paints sort of do the job - they will paint a cupboard white and the smell is a lot less and the brushes are easier to clean and they are MUCH better for the environment...but, for the actual visual finish, there still is no comparison to a high-volatiles old-fashioned smelly and bad for the environment gloss white.  Which is a shame.

But it was worth a try.

Those of you who have long memories will remember @impmann 's Alembicesque build in Camphor Laurel:
  

That was finished in old fashioned, high volatiles, Ronseal Hardglaze.    I've checked with @impmann recently and apparently it's holding up well.  Not quite as shiny, and it's sunk a bit more into the figuring...but still the same colour.

But when I built that for him, I had a sister set of timbers - a set of bookmatched camphor laurel from the same part of the same tree, and enough neck splices, to build a second guitar.  Which I did for myself. 

And on mine, because I try not to experiment on other folks builds, I decided to give the Osmo Gloss 3011 a go. 

It was immediately apparent that is 'wasn't quite as glossy'.  And on figured timber that means that 'it doesn't bring the grain out quite as much'.  It was definitely a bit like water-based white gloss paints in the difference to the Ronseal finish of @impmann 's.  Also, quite a lot of the figuring was nowhere near as vibrant as his.  But I was happy enough with it:



But look at it now!


Again, in absolute terms, there's nothing wrong with the look...but it doesn't look at all like the guitar I started with.

And so I'm going to strip it down, strip it off and do something else with it...which may well involve good old fashioned Ronseal Hardglaze and an artist's fan brush



 

Sarge

Is the colour difference solely down to the aged finish or is there a dramatic change in light? or both? 

Andyjr1515

On the back, incidentally, sapele and a maple/purpleheart/mahogany neck, the Osmo still looks OK and, to my eye, hasn't tinted in the same way as it has done on the front.

Here it is when first finished:


And here it is now, five years later:


And here's how the two tops were on their respective builds before the application of the Ronseal Hardglaze and Osmo Polyx Gloss 3011 respectively:




They were both book-matched Camphor Laurel book-matched sets from the same batch.

Well, the experiment has started.  It's all disassembled and I've started to strip the Osmo off it...and wow, it's tough stuff!

 

BillDL

Strangely enough I actually prefer the appearance of the way the lacquer has darkened, but I realise that was unintended and unwanted and it would be impossible to forecast how a customer's custom guitar would look a couple of years down the line. In general for non-guitar woodworking projects I have found that old fashioned full solvent varnishes are much more predictable for how the wood will look under it than water based varnishes.  I am told by a mechanic friend that resprayers prefer water based lacquers to solvent ones for accuracy of colour matching, but I would presume that this will be on cars that were already sprayed with water based lacquer in the factories.

I'm curious about the two sets of strap buttons.  I can see that the two on the upper horn allow for different options of attaching the strap, but what's the additional one on the base of the lower bout for?

ThePrettyDamned

That is odd - I wonder whether this is the osmo reacting with the wood, rather than the osmo changing colour - especially if the back looks the same.

Or it could be UV related? 

Roland

UV? Oxygen? I bet that Ronseal provides better protection against both.

TrentGuitars

Itl be UV, UV is the great darkener and equaliser.

Take a look at Cherry furniture before and after natural sun exposure! 

Also with regards to waterbased in the car industry, the majority of base (colour) is waterbased now, but clear coats remain a hardwearing solvent based 2K.

Definitely look into water based clears, bear in mind if you want the warmening you get from an oil or solvent base you should either tint the lacquer or stain beforehand with a diluted amber. See if you have a Morrells depot near you, try the 362 high performance waterbased.

Andyjr1515

TrentGuitars said:

Itl be UV, UV is the great darkener and equaliser.

Take a look at Cherry furniture before and after natural sun exposure! 

Also with regards to waterbased in the car industry, the majority of base (colour) is waterbased now, but clear coats remain a hardwearing solvent based 2K.

Definitely look into water based clears, bear in mind if you want the warmening you get from an oil or solvent base you should either tint the lacquer or stain beforehand with a diluted amber. See if you have a Morrells depot near you, try the 362 high performance waterbased.

Yes - I figured the same.  It is surprising all the same the degree to which it's darkened - it's spent most of its life in a gig bag.  

That said, even before it went brown, I was starting to think about refinishing it - @impmann 's was knockout...and mine was a little bit ordinary.

Great info in terms of clear coats - and very interesting that the auto clearcoats still tend to be solvent based.  But I will investigate the Morrells - though maybe not for this one - because I really would like to find a waterbased clearcoat that at least gets close the a standard old fashioned polyurethane varnish.

BillDL said:
"I'm curious about the two sets of strap buttons.  I can see that the two on the upper horn allow for different options of attaching the strap, but what's the additional one on the base of the lower bout for?"
That's me, I'm afraid.   I have double pins on most of my own guitars.  I have standard positions because I have a habit of lending them out from time to time but, for my own need, the perils of hand arthritis means that I need to get the guitar to sit more upright rather than falling forward, which the back button on the horn helps with.  Additionally, on this one - one of my lightweights (c 5 1/2lbs) - that extra back pin gets the guitar to sit at a better neck angle and body position for me so I don't have to bend my wrist as much.

I also put pins acoustic-style (on the 'wrong' side of the heel) on some necks for the same reason. 

The sit on a strap of a guitar or bass can be a make or break for a player - and actually there are more things that can be done to sort that than most players suppose 

BillDL

Thanks for the explanation about the strap buttons Andy.  Quite interesting to know.

ThePrettyDamned

Andyjr1515 said:

TrentGuitars said:

Itl be UV, UV is the great darkener and equaliser.

Take a look at Cherry furniture before and after natural sun exposure! 

Also with regards to waterbased in the car industry, the majority of base (colour) is waterbased now, but clear coats remain a hardwearing solvent based 2K.

Definitely look into water based clears, bear in mind if you want the warmening you get from an oil or solvent base you should either tint the lacquer or stain beforehand with a diluted amber. See if you have a Morrells depot near you, try the 362 high performance waterbased.

Yes - I figured the same.  It is surprising all the same the degree to which it's darkened - it's spent most of its life in a gig bag.  

That said, even before it went brown, I was starting to think about refinishing it - @impmann 's was knockout...and mine was a little bit ordinary.

Great info in terms of clear coats - and very interesting that the auto clearcoats still tend to be solvent based.  But I will investigate the Morrells - though maybe not for this one - because I really would like to find a waterbased clearcoat that at least gets close the a standard old fashioned polyurethane varnish.

BillDL said:
"I'm curious about the two sets of strap buttons.  I can see that the two on the upper horn allow for different options of attaching the strap, but what's the additional one on the base of the lower bout for?"
That's me, I'm afraid.   I have double pins on most of my own guitars.  I have standard positions because I have a habit of lending them out from time to time but, for my own need, the perils of hand arthritis means that I need to get the guitar to sit more upright rather than falling forward, which the back button on the horn helps with.  Additionally, on this one - one of my lightweights (c 5 1/2lbs) - that extra back pin gets the guitar to sit at a better neck angle and body position for me so I don't have to bend my wrist as much.

I also put pins acoustic-style (on the 'wrong' side of the heel) on some necks for the same reason. 

The sit on a strap of a guitar or bass can be a make or break for a player - and actually there are more things that can be done to sort that than most players suppose 

That's genius. 

Andyjr1515

ThePrettyDamned said:

Andyjr1515 said:

BillDL said:
"I'm curious about the two sets of strap buttons.  I can see that the two on the upper horn allow for different options of attaching the strap, but what's the additional one on the base of the lower bout for?"
That's me, I'm afraid.   I have double pins on most of my own guitars.  I have standard positions because I have a habit of lending them out from time to time but, for my own need, the perils of hand arthritis means that I need to get the guitar to sit more upright rather than falling forward, which the back button on the horn helps with.  Additionally, on this one - one of my lightweights (c 5 1/2lbs) - that extra back pin gets the guitar to sit at a better neck angle and body position for me so I don't have to bend my wrist as much.

I also put pins acoustic-style (on the 'wrong' side of the heel) on some necks for the same reason. 

The sit on a strap of a guitar or bass can be a make or break for a player - and actually there are more things that can be done to sort that than most players suppose 

That's genius. 

More 'needs must'

Rabs

I recently used some Osmo 1101 on a coffee table I made for a friend.. Was really impressed with it..  It is very clear when you take it out of the pot BUT you can still clearly see if you look in the pot that theres still a very slight amber tint...  

It just sorta depends on what people expect a finish too look like..  In the wood working world I have worked in, people usually just want the wood to look as natural as possible but yet still be well sealed. 1101 certainly does that..  But then a lot of people do like shiny too, especially for guitar finishes.

This is a piece of elm, just three coats on there.

This is what it looked like freshly oiled.
https://i.imgur.com/LmZk90g.jpg

And this is after a day or so...
https://i.imgur.com/Em82NzD.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/yub84jp.jpg

So a nice natural finish....  I am thinking of using it on my next build.

Andyjr1515

I agree - 1101 is absolutely great @Rabs .  As is the heavier satin 3032 - I have finished a number of guitars and basses in both and with neither have I seen the darkening issue that I'm seeing with the 3011 Gloss.  It's a bit of a surprise. 

Andyjr1515

Stripped down, stripped off and sanded and, after dealing with a couple of patches I missed in the relative darkness of the cellar workshop, ready for re-finishing!



I looked up @impmann 's build thread to check if I used @WezV 's tru-oil slurry and buff method as my sealer/filler step - and yes I did. 

This was @impmann 's guitar after that first step of slurry and buff:

And this was it after a subsequent couple of coats of hand brushed Ronseal polyurethane:


It will be interesting if mine comes out the same

So a teeny bit more sanding and then the slurry and buff begins

Andyjr1515

Sarge said:

Is the colour difference solely down to the aged finish or is there a dramatic change in light? or both? 

Sorry, @Sarge ;; -  missed your question.  

I know what you mean - photos I take at the front of our house (north facing) come out a very different colour to those taken at the back of the house (south facing ), regardless if there is any sun showing or not.

But no - in all lights this is significantly browner than it used to be.  Could be the timber itself, of course - that should be answered as part of the experiment.  The other reason for the experiment, though, is to see what difference there is in the amount of figuring visible between the two finishes - especially between my guitar when freshly Osmo'd and soon to be freshly varnished.

I'll see if @impmann can get me a recent photo of his too for completeness. 

ThePrettyDamned

Gotta say it's a gorgeous design.

What pickups were in it? 

Andyjr1515

ThePrettyDamned said:

Gotta say it's a gorgeous design.

What pickups were in it? 

Thanks!

The external shape is one I designed for our band's bassist - he wanted a piccolo bass so he could practice on the sofa without smacking his wife with a 34" scale headstock - this was that one:


He was so pleased with it - and I was so pleased with it when I played it - I decided to make a 6-string electric version for myself.

It's got a pair of Tonerider Classic IV's in it.  Sounds fabulous

Andyjr1515

ThePrettyDamned said:

Gotta say it's a gorgeous design.

What pickups were in it? 

This has some effects on it, but one of Matt Marriott's shorts playing it:

impmann

Andyjr1515 said:

Sarge said:

Is the colour difference solely down to the aged finish or is there a dramatic change in light? or both? 

Sorry, @Sarge ;; -  missed your question.  

I know what you mean - photos I take at the front of our house (north facing) come out a very different colour to those taken at the back of the house (south facing ), regardless if there is any sun showing or not.

But no - in all lights this is significantly browner than it used to be.  Could be the timber itself, of course - that should be answered as part of the experiment.  The other reason for the experiment, though, is to see what difference there is in the amount of figuring visible between the two finishes - especially between my guitar when freshly Osmo'd and soon to be freshly varnished.

I'll see if @impmann can get me a recent photo of his too for completeness. 

I'll see what I can do tonight.
 
:-)

Andyjr1515

impmann said:

Andyjr1515 said:

I'll see if @impmann can get me a recent photo of his too for completeness. 

I'll see what I can do tonight.
 
:-)

impmann

As promised:

Still beautiful!! :-)