Brass bridge pins?

Mellish

The pins I've got that I am fond of are Antique Acoustic. Lovely little things and much tougher than normal plastic. What are they bakelite, something like that?  

ICBM

Tannin said:

Interesting, ICBM. Did your tests include the Martin ones?

No - just plastic and bone initially, then plastic, rosewood and brass. I didn't directly compare bone with either ebony or brass, but since I couldn't hear any difference between bone and plastic I didn't see a lot of point. Basically brass was the only one that was different.

I kept the bone ones... because they looked the nicest.

I also don't think weight makes much if any difference - the difference between even six brass and six plastic is tiny, and all the others are much closer. If you think it does, just blue-tack something of a similar weight to the bridge and see if you can tell.

Tannin

Interesting. I got around to trying out the brass pins on the Mineur just now. Same strings, I just swapped the pins. 

FOR:

* The treble strings definitely sound better: sweeter and more true. (That's with my heavy-handed RH technique.)

* Strummed sound is sweeter, more trebly, less boxy, less distorted. It is now more difficult to clip that very light spruce top and I don't have to be so very, very careful to strum lightly. (To be fair, it is a guitar designed for fingerpicking, so I'm outside the design parameters.)

AGAINST:

* I've lost some of that lovely bass growl. There is less bass, and what there is is less pleasing to the ear.

* It has more zing in general, not a lot, but enough to notice and I'm not sure I like that.

* Overall, there is a subtle loss of richness. I don't think it is as subtle a sound or as varied a dynamic as it was with the old pins.

I'll leave them on for a while and see how my ear adapts to them, and also give myself a chance to grow used to it and start playing to suit it. 

I must admit, I'm a bit tempted to go silly and order a set of the Martin ones in the hope of getting most of the "for" features without any of the "against" ones, but let's not rush into that. 

The weight difference, BTW, is 4 grams. That's probably not insignificant. I'm not sure that bluetack would work - wouldn't it need to be something reasonably rigid and non-absorbing? Wood, say, or metal rather than putty like damping substances. I have toyed with the idea of experimenting with clamps, but not actually tried it.

bertie

ICBM said:

Tannin said:

Interesting, ICBM. Did your tests include the Martin ones?

I also don't think weight makes much if any difference - the difference between even six brass and six plastic is tiny, and all the others are much closer. If you think it does, just blue-tack something of a similar weight to the bridge and see if you can tell.

see to me,  Id think any additional weight of the brass "could" actually have a detrimental effect on the sound board ? Possibly limiting vibration !??!?!  

Im not stating it as opinion,  just my thinking

Tannin

No no, Bertie, absolutely right. Extra weight (holding all other factors equal) on any transducer (soundboard, speaker cone, microphone, etc.) changes the sound. In general, lighter = better, but only provided that the damping is able to cope with it. As the (e.g.) speaker cone gets lighter, it also clips more easily from a lower input signal.  Equally, it responds better to a small signal.  Making it heavier tends to smooth things out - exactly as throwing a sack of spuds in the boot makes some care ride better. (It is essentially the same physics.)

bertie

Tannin said:

N exactly as throwing a sack of spuds in the boot makes some care ride better. (It is essentially the same physics.)

dont' get many FWD  over there then  

(f= front not four)

Tannin

Ride better, not handle better.

My Subie is more comfortable with some weight in the back - they are not like that ex-factory but I have heavy-duty springs in it for off-road and outback use (because on a field trip I always have a lot of kit weighing it down).  And practically every ute ever made is the same.

(Er .. I don't think you have utes in Blighty. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ute_(vehicle)

bertie

ute = pickup truck?  

we do

Tannin

No, not a pickup truck. A ute is a passenger car chassis and body cut off just behind the driver's head, with a cargo tray on the back and (usually) uprated rear springs. A pickup truck is quite different.

bertie

Tannin said:

No, not a pickup truck. A ute is a passenger car chassis and body cut off just behind the driver's head, with a cargo tray on the back and (usually) uprated rear springs. A pickup truck is quite different.

we (well me) just call em big pickups....................

Mellish

I've tried Martin Luxe (I have a set). @Tannin ; - I would agree with @bertie in that the weight restricts/reduces top vibrations or that's how it seems to me. I would say don't be in a hurry to buy a set, you may not like what you find  

ICBM

I've also heard it said that weight restricts the top vibration and that's why you don't want a large or thick bridge as that will kill the volume and tone of the guitar.

This is wrong. If it was true then the Gibson Dove wouldn't be the cannon it is.

bertie

bumble bee ?  has everything we learnt in physics classes null and void ?

or perhaps, and more likely - the top of a Dove,  is "tamed" by the additional mass of the bridge ??!?

CavemanGrogg

bertie said:

Tannin said:

No, not a pickup truck. A ute is a passenger car chassis and body cut off just behind the driver's head, with a cargo tray on the back and (usually) uprated rear springs. A pickup truck is quite different.

we (well me) just call em big pickups....................

That's what you'd call a ''light truck'', it's not even remotely similiar to a ute, my last vehicle was a light truck, a Mitsubishi Barbarian, or Storm depending on which country you are in, a ute is actually built on top of a normal car chassis, where as light trucks/pickup trucks are built on truck chassis.

BillDL

My first thoughts about the additional weight of brass pins would be the speed of the response.  I would have thought that the mass would make the top travel further but with each movement it would take longer to return to "flat" again.  There could be some phase cancellation in the vibrations as a result.  Theory only.  I was never particularly good at physics, but I do know what the wave length and amplitude are in wave forms, and I do know roughly how momentum works.

sev112

Tannin said:

Interesting. I got around to trying out the brass pins on the Mineur just now. Same strings, I just swapped the pins. 

FOR:

* The treble strings definitely sound better: sweeter and more true. (That's with my heavy-handed RH technique.)

* Strummed sound is sweeter, more trebly, less boxy, less distorted. It is now more difficult to clip that very light spruce top and I don't have to be so very, very careful to strum lightly. (To be fair, it is a guitar designed for fingerpicking, so I'm outside the design parameters.)

AGAINST:

* I've lost some of that lovely bass growl. There is less bass, and what there is is less pleasing to the ear.

* It has more zing in general, not a lot, but enough to notice and I'm not sure I like that.

* Overall, there is a subtle loss of richness. I don't think it is as subtle a sound or as varied a dynamic as it was with the old pins.

I'll leave them on for a while and see how my ear adapts to them, and also give myself a chance to grow used to it and start playing to suit it. 

I must admit, I'm a bit tempted to go silly and order a set of the Martin ones in the hope of getting most of the "for" features without any of the "against" ones, but let's not rush into that. 

The weight difference, BTW, is 4 grams. That's probably not insignificant. I'm not sure that bluetack would work - wouldn't it need to be something reasonably rigid and non-absorbing? Wood, say, or metal rather than putty like damping substances. I have toyed with the idea of experimenting with clamps, but not actually tried it.

Sounds like a mixed set would be a good outcome - brass for the high strings only ?

Tannin

Yes indeed  ... but is it the brass on the end of the string which makes the difference, or the weight of the brass pins? I'd have thought the weight was the likely culprit, but that's only a guess. 

Meanwhile, having played it again today, it's good. Different but good. I'm not convinced that the sound is superior, but the guitar is more versatile with the brass pins. Have I sacrificed too much of its unique character though? It is more similar to  my other guitars, especially the Messiah now: still itself, but not quite so distinctive. Hmmmm .... well, I don't have to decide tonight. Plenty of time.

Mellish

I've owned a set of Martin Luxe for around two months. Here's what I found: Weight-wise, 1 is heavier than 6 plastic pins. They tamed that ringing trebles I get with bone, and they took away some of the boomy bass of this HD-28.The overall sound was more metallic. I didn't like it and no longer use them. But bear in mind that that's *my* ears and this guitar YMMV  

Tannin

Thanks Mellish. I've heard enough of the brass pins in this guitar to be quite certain (without bothering to try them) that they's sound unpleasant in the Messiah, the Angel, and very likely the Guild. In the 12-string (which I play as a 6) they'd be awful. The others, maybe, maybe not, but probably not. 

From what you've told me (and also the odd Youtube thing) I suspect I won't especially like the Luxe, but I'd happily spend $50 just to try them out. But $160 or whatever the price was I mentioned on the other page was .... maybe not.

Next up I'll try the suggestion  @sev112 made.

Mellish

It's a lot of money mate for something I suspect would be similar in tone to the brass ones you already have. I'm not trying to put you off, just don't Want you to spend that much only to maybe decide it was money wasted