What came 1st - the (C) major scale or the piano keyboard ?

personalnadir

The keyboard layout is actually 200-300 years older than the piano. Glancing at the Wikipedia article it seems that it initially varied depending on the notes used in the music at the time and the instruments capabilities. Could see anything on how we wound up with a standard layout 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_keyboard

GoFish

Tannin said:

@sev112 Redit has an excellent set of articles covering these very questions. Let's see if I can find it ... hmmm ... not sure if this is what I'm looking for: https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory/wiki/index#wiki_history_of_music_theory_questions ;

... Yep. That looks like the stuff I remember. Poke around and you'll find answers to most of those questions. Redit can be a bit of a flea pit, but the music theory section can be very good.

Bonza! Thank you

viz

According to Early Keyboard Instruments, this is the earliest surviving music written for keyboard - 1320 - but it wasn’t the current configuration of keyboard. Keyboards existed before then, it’s just that the notated music from before then hasn’t survived. And no 15th century keyboard music has survived, oddly. 

https://i.imgur.com/AslQaG3.jpg

In terms of instruments, the hydraulic organ was around as far back as 300BC, and the pneumatic organ was introduced (actually re-introduced apparently) to the West in 756AD. They also didn’t look the same as today. The Winchester organ in around 1000 had a diatonic scale with an extra Bb.

And according to English Keyboard Music, there is this key ( )section here; the extract at the top is from 1519. The 27 keys refered to are mainly white; there were some black keys inserted at the bottom, but these were 4ths or 3rds apart, not semitones. So the current system was still not around by 1519. 

https://i.imgur.com/Q5cUHqW.jpg

It was well after that that the harpsichord and associated instruments came into existence, followed by the fortepiano, then the pianoforte. 

thing

We have some fascinating stuff in the library at Lincoln Cathedral. We've had organs here since at least 1310 cos we have the invoice for a guy who used to clean the bellows. So I'm guessing they were here a while before that. We also have some early plainsong music, manuscript of course and loads of manuscript Byrd stuff cos he used to live here and was the organist for a bit.

The history of keyboards is far too dense to go into here but it's good reading if you are into that sort of thing. Keyboards with quarter tones instead of the modern half tone and all sorts of weird shitness. The history of tempered tuning is worth a book in itself.

Incidentally, pub quiz trivia, we  have music books that have the words and music printed at four right angles on the same page. This was so that singers could stand around a table and see the music hence the expression 'Singing from the same hymn book'.

Every day is a learning day.

ToneControl

thing said:

We have some fascinating stuff in the library at Lincoln Cathedral. We've had organs here since at least 1310 cos we have the invoice for a guy who used to clean the bellows. So I'm guessing they were here a while before that. We also have some early plainsong music, manuscript of course and loads of manuscript Byrd stuff cos he used to live here and was the organist for a bit.

The history of keyboards is far too dense to go into here but it's good reading if you are into that sort of thing. Keyboards with quarter tones instead of the modern half tone and all sorts of weird shitness. The history of tempered tuning is worth a book in itself.

Incidentally, pub quiz trivia, we  have music books that have the words and music printed at four right angles on the same page. This was so that singers could stand around a table and see the music hence the expression 'Singing from the same hymn book'.

Every day is a learning day.

can you post photos?

prowla

Ah, the evocative name of the musical instrument "the piano" sounds so exotic:

• piano = plane/flat, presumably because the keys are laid out flat
  

The full name is pianoforte, which is two verbs stuck together:

• piano forte = soft + loud
  

Incidentally, there is also an Italian phrase "piano piano", which means calm down or take it easy.

Tannin

"Piano piano" = "softly softly" = a 1960s TV show. 

viz

pppppp = the marking on the bassoon part in Tchaikovsky’s 6th symphony. Actually impossible to produce on the bassoon. 

Teetonetal

viz said:

pppppp = the marking on the bassoon part in Tchaikovsky’s 6th symphony. Actually impossible to produce on the bassoon. 

A early example of passive aggressive behavior?

digitalkettle

Teetonetal said:

viz said:

pppppp = the marking on the bassoon part in Tchaikovsky’s 6th symphony. Actually impossible to produce on the bassoon. 

A early example of passive aggressive behavior?

Ppppppassive aggressive

thing

ToneControl said:

thing said:

We have some fascinating stuff in the library at Lincoln Cathedral. We've had organs here since at least 1310 cos we have the invoice for a guy who used to clean the bellows. So I'm guessing they were here a while before that. We also have some early plainsong music, manuscript of course and loads of manuscript Byrd stuff cos he used to live here and was the organist for a bit.

The history of keyboards is far too dense to go into here but it's good reading if you are into that sort of thing. Keyboards with quarter tones instead of the modern half tone and all sorts of weird shitness. The history of tempered tuning is worth a book in itself.

Incidentally, pub quiz trivia, we  have music books that have the words and music printed at four right angles on the same page. This was so that singers could stand around a table and see the music hence the expression 'Singing from the same hymn book'.

Every day is a learning day.

can you post photos?

I've looked under every possible permutation on Google and can't believe I cant find any images. Trust me, it does exist, I've held a copy in my sweaty paws! Can't remember whether it was 16C or 17C. I think it was 16th so Tudor and printed so post 1480's for sure.

thing

@Tone Control: see PM.

viz

thing said:

ToneControl said:

thing said:

We have some fascinating stuff in the library at Lincoln Cathedral. We've had organs here since at least 1310 cos we have the invoice for a guy who used to clean the bellows. So I'm guessing they were here a while before that. We also have some early plainsong music, manuscript of course and loads of manuscript Byrd stuff cos he used to live here and was the organist for a bit.

The history of keyboards is far too dense to go into here but it's good reading if you are into that sort of thing. Keyboards with quarter tones instead of the modern half tone and all sorts of weird shitness. The history of tempered tuning is worth a book in itself.

Incidentally, pub quiz trivia, we  have music books that have the words and music printed at four right angles on the same page. This was so that singers could stand around a table and see the music hence the expression 'Singing from the same hymn book'.

Every day is a learning day.

can you post photos?

I've looked under every possible permutation on Google and can't believe I cant find any images. Trust me, it does exist, I've held a copy in my sweaty paws! Can't remember whether it was 16C or 17C. I think it was 16th so Tudor and printed so post 1480's for sure.

Yes! Not uncommon in them days. In Elizabethan times. Normally with a melody and lute line, then the other 3 singers at right angles. John Dowland’s 1st songbook I think, for example, in 1597 or something. 

viz

Like this!

https://i.imgur.com/cbsgA8w.png

thing

Ah where did you find that!!! Been looking for ages.

I've got some nice Dowland stuff transcribed for classical. Some of his stuff was a bit dirge like, weird ideas of upbeat music that the Tudors had but some of it is quite lively.

GuitarAndy2

Another good book that you might find interesting is Temperament by Stuart Isacoff, goes into a lot of the origins around different tuning types/styles and the reasoning/historical context behind them.

viz

GuitarAndy2 said:

Another good book that you might find interesting is Temperament by Stuart Isacoff, goes into a lot of the origins around different tuning types/styles and the reasoning/historical context behind them.

Also that book called something like “true temperament and why it killed music and why you should care” or something has loads of good info about the development of Western scales and the tuning thereof. 

Grangousier

The other thing is that the fundamental mode (if you're generating a scale from the fifth harmonic), is the Lydian - building the scale by fifths would give you C-G-D-A-E-B-F#, This being the basis of George Russell's frankly inscrutable Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organisation. 

KDS

didn't Bach sort this issue out?

guitarjack66

KDS said:

didn't Bach sort this issue out?

Bach to the future?