Playing the Lydian mode using the minor pentatonic scale

Claude_Ruelle

Hello everyone,

By listening to the song 'Heart at Midnight' by Cory Henry, I discovered that a lot of the phrases he was playing over the Emaj9 chord were articulated around the Eb minor pentatonic scale. This outlines some beautiful intervals from the Lydian scale (respectively 7,9,3,#11,13).

I've made a video in which I am trying to apply this concept to the guitar: https://youtu.be/9u_B-6BKUn8

I try to explain how it works from 4:25. Let me know what you think and if you have found other ways to use the minor pentatonic scale.

Keyboard players seem to be really good at that but I don't see it too much on the guitar. I remember seeing a video on Youtube in which Scott Henderson explains a similar concept.

Brad

Very nice job!

Some other cool uses for good old Uncle Minor Pentatonic:

Up a tone from a Min chord (F#m pent over Em) for a Dorian sound.

Up a 4th from a Min chord (F#m pent over C#m) for Aeolian.
  
Up a minor 3 from a Dom/Alt chord (F#m pent over D#7) for an Altered sound.

And generally knowing what pentatonics to use off various degrees of a chord is incredibly powerful. So for those Heart at Midnight chords, there are a few cool options for playing that change:

Emaj/C#m to Ebmaj/Cm pentatonic 

Bmaj/G#m to Bbmaj/Gm pentatonic

This is great as you only need to shift up or down a semi tone for the appropriate chord. But of course we can mix up any of the other options as we wish.

I think that's a really good point about keys players by the way. I think they (and horn players) have a much more definite approach to line creation and most importantly phrasing. I often wonder if the nature of the instrument helps with that. I think us guitar players tend to 'fluff' our way through it, with the exception of the likes of Scott Henderson et al  

  

viz

^ yeah for me scott henderson is the master, and he’s often doing that minor penta up the semitones thing that I’ve described before;

in a 251 in C, on the D minor, play A minor penta
on the G7, play A# minor penta
on the C maj 7, play B minor penta. That gives you the lydian notes you’re describing in your vid. 

You just slip up the semitones as the chords roll by. 

roberty

I do intend to watch this when I have the attention span. And try the other ideas mentioned. Someone tried to teach me this stuff but I never had occasion to apply it

Claude_Ruelle

Brad said:

Very nice job!

Some other cool uses for good old Uncle Minor Pentatonic:

Up a tone from a Min chord (F#m pent over Em) for a Dorian sound.

Up a 4th from a Min chord (F#m pent over C#m) for Aeolian.
  
Up a minor 3 from a Dom/Alt chord (F#m pent over D#7) for an Altered sound.

And generally knowing what pentatonics to use off various degrees of a chord is incredibly powerful. So for those Heart at Midnight chords, there are a few cool options for playing that change:

Emaj/C#m to Ebmaj/Cm pentatonic 

Bmaj/G#m to Bbmaj/Gm pentatonic

This is great as you only need to shift up or down a semi tone for the appropriate chord. But of course we can mix up any of the other options as we wish.

I think that's a really good point about keys players by the way. I think they (and horn players) have a much more definite approach to line creation and most importantly phrasing. I often wonder if the nature of the instrument helps with that. I think us guitar players tend to 'fluff' our way through it, with the exception of the likes of Scott Henderson et al  

  

Awesome stuff! I'll definitely start exploring all those options.

It might be because keyboard players generally have a better grasp on harmony since they REALLY have to learn to play in all 12 keys. Not like guitarists who can just shift the same chord and scale positions.

Modulus_Amps

Nice playing - There is an uneasiness, where it feels like some of the lines didn't resolve fully.

I generally don't think in pentatonic scales, a fault from the way I learned scales etc. But if you extended that idea to playing Eb Phrygian (which includes all the minor pentatonic notes) it would give you more notes to hit home on, particularly the E note.

But I am not one to try and teach this stuff

stratman3142

I think this one's fairly well known and (IIRC) I think first heard it described by Larry Carlton.

A major pentatonic built on the 5th of a maj7 chord. 

So for Emaj7 that would be a Bmaj pentatonic which gives the 2(9), 3, 5, 6(13), 7. I suppose you could also think of it as G# minor pentatonic.

So for the Emaj7 example, the pentatonic notes are B, C#, D#, F#, G#.  The neat thing is that the C# is commonly bent up a tone in that pentatonic pattern, which lands nicely on the maj7.

Claude_Ruelle

Modulus_Amps said:

Nice playing - There is an uneasiness, where it feels like some of the lines didn't resolve fully.

I generally don't think in pentatonic scales, a fault from the way I learned scales etc. But if you extended that idea to playing Eb Phrygian (which includes all the minor pentatonic notes) it would give you more notes to hit home on, particularly the E note.

But I am not one to try and teach this stuff

In a way, you might have an advantage not thinking in pentatonic scales. This probably gives you a better vision of harmony and modes. So many of us get trapped in the pentatonic boxes.

papashandy

For me, beginning to learn the piano over the past year has really highlighted the importance of knowing the interval/s you are playing in relation to the underlying chord. The way the instrument is layed out really lends itself to thinking in intervals, in a way that pattern/shape based playing on the guitar doesn’t.

I started the guitar, beginning with the bass, playing out of pattern based shapes without really having any understanding of the intervals I was playing. Just playing whatever sounded good. It’s easy and fun to play out of the pentatonic shapes without thinking too much about what you’re doing. I always liked the sound of switching between minor and major thirds, without actually knowing that’s what I was doing.

To anyone learning the guitar now, I’d really stress the importance of knowing your intervals. That in combination with just playing around with what sounds good and not overthinking what you’re doing! By learning intervals I don’t just mean by position on the fretboard; hear them, play them, sing them. That way you’ll get to know say the sound of a mode like Lydian and appreciate the interval that makes that scale different to the regular Ionian mode. I’d also highly recommend playing the piano to any guitar player.

roberty

@papashandy knowing the intervals is how you learn to play by ear too (chords and melody). I was taught by one particularly shrewd music teacher to associate each interval with the first two notes of a well known melody, eg my bonnie is a major 6, the jaws theme is a minor 2nd. I would like to learn some basic keyboard. My first two attempts were abortive, for different reasons

Claude_Ruelle

papashandy said:

For me, beginning to learn the piano over the past year has really highlighted the importance of knowing the interval/s you are playing in relation to the underlying chord. The way the instrument is layed out really lends itself to thinking in intervals, in a way that pattern/shape based playing on the guitar doesn’t.

I started the guitar, beginning with the bass, playing out of pattern based shapes without really having any understanding of the intervals I was playing. Just playing whatever sounded good. It’s easy and fun to play out of the pentatonic shapes without thinking too much about what you’re doing. I always liked the sound of switching between minor and major thirds, without actually knowing that’s what I was doing.

To anyone learning the guitar now, I’d really stress the importance of knowing your intervals. That in combination with just playing around with what sounds good and not overthinking what you’re doing! By learning intervals I don’t just mean by position on the fretboard; hear them, play them, sing them. That way you’ll get to know say the sound of a mode like Lydian and appreciate the interval that makes that scale different to the regular Ionian mode. I’d also highly recommend playing the piano to any guitar player.

I agree. I too started playing the piano a couple of years ago and it has helped tremendously with visualising intervals and chord voicings.