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Sweden excess deaths

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ToneControlToneControl Frets: 10527
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/swedens-death-rate-among-lowest-europe-despite-avoiding-strict/

Sweden’s death rate during the Covid pandemic is among the lowest in Europe, despite the country refusing to impose strict lockdowns, according to new figures from the World Health Organisation.

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  • AdeyAdey Frets: 1425
    I note the headline in there saying "Excess Deaths Critical for Holding Governments to Account".

    That translates as "Ability of Governaments to Crstal Ball Gaze to be used to Hold Governments to Account". Seems a bit unfair seeing as the media (press and social media) have been hounding them for not doing the right thing, when doing nothing was the right thing....
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  • Everyone's an expert after the fact.
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  • TanninTannin Frets: 1782
    Spin, spin, spin.

    Sweden's "good" excess death rate is way, way worse than that of many other places. In particular, look at the tremendous success lockdown allied with track and trace was in countries as diverse as New Zealand, Taiwan, Australia, Malaysia, Singapore, South Korea, and Japan. The worst-performed of these countries (Japan) had an excess death rate one quarter that of Sweden. 

    All of the very successful seven used quarantine and lockdown backed by track and trace, and a huge number of lives were saved.

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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 23250
    Just because it appears to have worked for them doesn't mean it would work for other countries. I'm pretty sure that we must have a far denser population so that would have a great bearing on how things pan out.
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  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 5830
    axisus said:
    Just because it appears to have worked for them doesn't mean it would work for other countries. I'm pretty sure that we must have a far denser population so that would have a great bearing on how things pan out.
    Denser in more ways than one too .....

    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
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  • chris78chris78 Frets: 6526
    Tannin said:
    Spin, spin, spin.

    Sweden's "good" excess death rate is way, way worse than that of many other places. In particular, look at the tremendous success lockdown allied with track and trace was in countries as diverse as New Zealand, Taiwan, Australia, Malaysia, Singapore, South Korea, and Japan. The worst-performed of these countries (Japan) had an excess death rate one quarter that of Sweden. 

    All of the very successful seven used quarantine and lockdown backed by track and trace, and a huge number of lives were saved.

    Spin, spin, spin from you mate!

    Some of the countries with the worst outcomes, as measured by excess deaths, had the most severe restrictive measures in the world.

    Don't let facts get in the way of your propaganda though.

    I give you, most of Eastern Europe, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, the UK itself, The Netherlands, Austria, France, Germany as examples, all with higher excess mortality than Sweden....
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  • Everyone's an expert after the fact.
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  • ColsCols Frets: 4707
    Are we still arguing about who had the best pandemic?
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  • chris78chris78 Frets: 6526
    Everyone's an expert after the fact.
    Think you needed to be here for the past 2 years mate. Plenty of people were more accurate than the so called experts, despite this being a guitar forum
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  • chris78chris78 Frets: 6526
    Cols said:
    Are we still arguing about who had the best pandemic?
    It’s be good to learn from what we got wrong, wouldn’t it, so we don’t repeat the same mistakes.
    Imagine anyone thinking locking healthy people up was a good policy outcome in the next pandemic?
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  • TanninTannin Frets: 1782
    chris78 said:
    Tannin said:
    Spin, spin, spin.

    Sweden's "good" excess death rate is way, way worse than that of many other places. In particular, look at the tremendous success lockdown allied with track and trace was in countries as diverse as New Zealand, Taiwan, Australia, Malaysia, Singapore, South Korea, and Japan. The worst-performed of these countries (Japan) had an excess death rate one quarter that of Sweden. 

    All of the very successful seven used quarantine and lockdown backed by track and trace, and a huge number of lives were saved.

    Spin, spin, spin from you mate!

    Some of the countries with the worst outcomes, as measured by excess deaths, had the most severe restrictive measures in the world.

    Don't let facts get in the way of your propaganda though.

    I give you, most of Eastern Europe, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, the UK itself, The Netherlands, Austria, France, Germany as examples, all with higher excess mortality than Sweden....

    Severity of restrictive measures means nothing if they are applied too late and inconsistently, and constantly flouted. Italy is a spectacular example. Lockdowns work, but you have to actually do them properly - i.e., follow the example set by those spectacularly successful countries I listed.

    As for the absurd notion that it has to do with population density, all of the places listed have large, dense cities and most of them have higher population density than the countries of Europe. 
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  • KilgoreKilgore Frets: 5413
    Cols said:
    Are we still arguing about who had the best pandemic?
    All the results aren't in yet. We're waiting on North Korea. 
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  • chris78chris78 Frets: 6526
    Tannin said:
    chris78 said:
    Tannin said:
    Spin, spin, spin.

    Sweden's "good" excess death rate is way, way worse than that of many other places. In particular, look at the tremendous success lockdown allied with track and trace was in countries as diverse as New Zealand, Taiwan, Australia, Malaysia, Singapore, South Korea, and Japan. The worst-performed of these countries (Japan) had an excess death rate one quarter that of Sweden. 

    All of the very successful seven used quarantine and lockdown backed by track and trace, and a huge number of lives were saved.

    Spin, spin, spin from you mate!

    Some of the countries with the worst outcomes, as measured by excess deaths, had the most severe restrictive measures in the world.

    Don't let facts get in the way of your propaganda though.

    I give you, most of Eastern Europe, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, the UK itself, The Netherlands, Austria, France, Germany as examples, all with higher excess mortality than Sweden....

    Severity of restrictive measures means nothing if they are applied too late and inconsistently, and constantly flouted. Italy is a spectacular example. Lockdowns work, but you have to actually do them properly - i.e., follow the example set by those spectacularly successful countries I listed.

    As for the absurd notion that it has to do with population density, all of the places listed have large, dense cities and most of them have higher population density than the countries of Europe. 
    Literally everything you’ve written there is rubbish you can’t back up.

    Italy had an extremely severe lockdown with people literally confined to their homes. 

    If you’re saying population density doesn’t matter, you still don’t understand how covid is transmitted and that’s frightening 2 years on
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  • TanninTannin Frets: 1782
    Italy had more exceptions and spectacular quarantine-breaking than a dog has fleas.

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  • TanninTannin Frets: 1782
    chris78 said:


    If you’re saying population density doesn’t matter, you still don’t understand how covid is transmitted and that’s frightening 2 years on
    Try reading what I actually wrote. 

    Then think about the massive population density in some places that handled Covid very well - e.g, Japan. Way higher than most (all?) of Europe.

    Anyone saying "population density is the key" is clueless. 

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  • KilgoreKilgore Frets: 5413
    chris78 said:
    Tannin said:
    Spin, spin, spin.

    Sweden's "good" excess death rate is way, way worse than that of many other places. In particular, look at the tremendous success lockdown allied with track and trace was in countries as diverse as New Zealand, Taiwan, Australia, Malaysia, Singapore, South Korea, and Japan. The worst-performed of these countries (Japan) had an excess death rate one quarter that of Sweden. 

    All of the very successful seven used quarantine and lockdown backed by track and trace, and a huge number of lives were saved.

    Spin, spin, spin from you mate!

    Some of the countries with the worst outcomes, as measured by excess deaths, had the most severe restrictive measures in the world.

    Don't let facts get in the way of your propaganda though.

    I give you, most of Eastern Europe, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, the UK itself, The Netherlands, Austria, France, Germany as examples, all with higher excess mortality than Sweden....
    Sweden isn't in NATO, so that might have something to do with it. 
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 8915
    Tannin said:
    chris78 said:


    If you’re saying population density doesn’t matter, you still don’t understand how covid is transmitted and that’s frightening 2 years on
    Try reading what I actually wrote. 

    Then think about the massive population density in some places that handled Covid very well - e.g, Japan. Way higher than most (all?) of Europe.

    Anyone saying "population density is the key" is clueless. 

    There are a whole bunch of other factors as well.

    For a start, Japan has a lot less fat people than we do.  Obesity is a massive risk factor.  If we were like Japan, our death rate would have been a lot lower.

    The other thing to bear in mind is that it isn't finished yet - especially in countries that did "successfully" lock down.  There is less immunity there, so they are more susceptible to what is still going around at the moment.

    There are other consequences of the lockdowns.  This is one potential consequence:


    Further study is needed on that, but it does look like the lockdowns played a part in that.

    There will definitely be long term consequences from trashing economies.  Life expectancy is very strongly linked to wealth.  One of the clearest examples of this is Germany before reunification.  Life expectancy was 2 years lower in the East.  We have not yet brought ourselves down to pre-reunification East German levels but we have done major damage.  Government finances have been completely wrecked, and it will affect health funding in the future, which will cost lives.
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  • TanninTannin Frets: 1782
    But we - the Covid-successful nations - did not "trash our economies". We did far better than the places which failed to deal with the disease effectively. In many cases, we sailed through most of the pandemic under business-as-usual conditions, and our economies have prospered accordingly. 
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 8915
    Tannin said:
    But we - the Covid-successful nations - did not "trash our economies". We did far better than the places which failed to deal with the disease effectively. In many cases, we sailed through most of the pandemic under business-as-usual conditions, and our economies have prospered accordingly. 

    Australia had very severe lockdowns in some of it's biggest cities, and you are telling me that it didn't do major damage to the economy.

    Also, like I said above, there is still more to come in those countries because there is a much lower level of immunity.  I've just seen that Jacinda Adern has tested postive.  It's widespread in NZ at the moment.  She has to isolate until 21st May.  There must be tens of thousands more isolating in NZ at the moment, and it's still costing the economy.
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