Where do you start with those fast scale/arpeggio runs?

allen

If you watch John Cordy's youtube channel he is always doing fast legato scale/arpeggio runs. I've seen a few other players do similar things.

How do you start doing it?

I have had a little dabble with Frank Gambale's video 'Chop Builder' that does a whole load of arpeggios to a rhythm and to be honest I didn't really master it although I'm not sure I gave it enough time.

Is that the sort of thing you have to do? i.e. work out some scale patterns and then practice them to a metronome for a few months (years?) until you can do them quickly and smoothly.

My understanding of the fretboard is pretty good and I can play a major scale anywhere on the neck pretty easily in any key. So it's not theory that I'm lacking.

Any recommended youtube videos or websites?

JohnCordy

As a kid I spent hours and hours just running this stuff with a metronome etc. On my channel there's a lessons playlist which has s ton of legato licks and also talking about the approach a bit. Hope that helps!

Oh and Tom Quayle has some really thorough legato stuff and David Beebee, who developed some improved control stuff and got very good at legato as an adult!

Roland

When I learned legato playing the focus wasn’t on scales but on getting level volume across the phrase. That’s easier on ascending runs because the string doesn’t lose as much energy with a straight hammer-on as it does with a pull-off. I learned to pull off with a sideways motion which effectively plucked the string, adding energy to maintain volume. So I’d start by playing three note per string sequences, first up, then down, and working on consistent volume.

Thinking about it, most of my lead playing is legato, with the plectrum mainly being used when I change string.

Bod

I'm interested in this.  My lad's like lightning around the fretboard and I've been inspired to learn a few of the solos he's been playing.  Tornado of Souls by Megadeth is the current one and I'm OK until the third section of the solo where I just can't move accurately or fast enough, even when slowing down.  I genuinely think I'm too old to be that quick now, but I'll persevere.

allen

Thanks to @JohnCordy and @Roland ;

It seems that I need to start by committing 3nps patterns to muscle memory.

I can already easily play major scales across the neck, but not in 3nps patterns. I have learnt the major scale by knowing the 5 pentatonic shapes and then adding the other scale degrees. So that has left me with patterns that change between 2 note and 3 note per string. When I say easily, it's not fluid/fluent/fast, but I can see the shapes very clearly on the fretboard.

One other question about 3 nps. I find the 5 fret stretches uncomfortable. I already found that with the Frank Gambale video. Oddly enough it's bearable on the low E string, but the D string and beyond is difficult.

Are the 5 fret stretches just something that I have to go through the pain of forcing my hands into?

Roland

I rarely play anything that’s more than four frets wide without using slides or bends. But then I find no interest in racing up and down scales

PAL

I feel the same I prefer feel and melody over speed.

JohnCordy

@allen you should just play slower apparently.

Regarding the 3nps string conundrum, it's not that it's not possible to similar things without it, it's just that literally every legato player that I'm aware of uses 3nps or more (like Allan Holdsworth or Bret Garsed etc).

Allen Hinds might be a good one to check out as his left hand doesn't seem to be doing quite so much stretchy stretchy, or Robben Ford has a very neat and few fret approach, but not particularly legato based?

roberty

allen said:

Thanks to @JohnCordy and @Roland ;

Are the 5 fret stretches just something that I have to go through the pain of forcing my hands into?

Yep, your hand will stretch over time until it's comfortable. One exercise I do (or have done) is 5-7-9-5-7-9 hammer ons on the low E or alternating across the low E and A strings, you can make your way down to 1-3-5-1-3-5

allen

JohnCordy said:

@allen you should just play slower apparently.

  

JohnCordy said:

Allen Hinds might be a good one to check out as his left hand doesn't seem to be doing quite so much stretchy stretchy, or Robben Ford has a very neat and few fret approach, but not particularly legato based?

Thanks for the suggestions. I might have a look.

roberty said:

Yep, your hand will stretch over time until it's comfortable. One exercise I do (or have done) is 5-7-9-5-7-9 hammer ons on the low E or alternating across the low E and A strings, you can make your way down to 1-3-5-1-3-5

Thanks. My hand did hurt for a while after practicing the Frank Gambale stuff. I think I've got a small finger span and don't have any 25.5 scale guitars. I might have to get a jaguar to get me going.

digitalkettle

allen said:

roberty said:

Yep, your hand will stretch over time until it's comfortable. One exercise I do (or have done) is 5-7-9-5-7-9 hammer ons on the low E or alternating across the low E and A strings, you can make your way down to 1-3-5-1-3-5

Thanks. My hand did hurt for a while after practicing the Frank Gambale stuff. I think I've got a small finger span and don't have any 25.5 scale guitars. I might have to get a jaguar to get me going.

Not to stop a man gassing for another guitar but just play the patterns higher up on the fretboard

Btw, 'Chop Builder' is a right slog...too much of that and you will feel it!

allen

Well I've done about 10 minutes a day of it this week.

Just finding my around visualising all 7 shapes of the 3nps pattern.

I'm currently thinking of them all in C major and trying to make sure I know where the root is in all of the shapes on every string.

John Cordy video was helpful. I also say a Claus Levin video on detailed technique that was helpful.

- Going up is easier than going down
- Triplet feel isn't too bad, but need to work on the 16th or 8th note feel.
- I can easily see pentatonic shapes in any key, but when I try to switch keys I'm currently having trouble. Of course I can work it out, but haven't quite got the shapes with roots in my head clearly to do it smoothly.

Barney

I started that type of thing really slow at first making every note the same volume then speeding up in time ...I think it's a lot easier using hammering for nowhere coming down the scale ...you can do this without the pick but a lot harder going up but can be done just using first finger to hammer on ...it's good for 3 notes per string type on thing 

CaseOfAce

As an aside there was a Shawn Lane legato lick in last months Guitar Techniques that had major 3rd stretches / hammer on /pull offs:

          H     H      P       P
----13--- 17---21--- 17--- 13 ----

on the 2nd and 3rd strings.

Not advisable.

DavusPG

allen said:

If you watch John Cordy's youtube channel he is always doing fast legato scale/arpeggio runs. I've seen a few other players do similar things.

How do you start doing it?

JohnCordy said:

As a kid I spent hours and hours just running this stuff with a metronome etc. 

As with many things, there's your ultimate answer: Repetition and lots of it!

grappagreen

digitalkettle said:

allen said:

roberty said:

Yep, your hand will stretch over time until it's comfortable. One exercise I do (or have done) is 5-7-9-5-7-9 hammer ons on the low E or alternating across the low E and A strings, you can make your way down to 1-3-5-1-3-5

Thanks. My hand did hurt for a while after practicing the Frank Gambale stuff. I think I've got a small finger span and don't have any 25.5 scale guitars. I might have to get a jaguar to get me going.

Not to stop a man gassing for another guitar but just play the patterns higher up on the fretboard

Btw, 'Chop Builder' is a right slog...too much of that and you will feel it!

Frank specifically states no more than twice per week

Chop builder is actually a great general workout. A good way to approach it however is to 'capture' the video (the chapters are broken apart on YT), stick it in transcribe and work up to tempo over a period of time in shorter spells. Only when you can play at tempo should you stitch it all together incrementally until you can go end-end. I love the fact that it actually sounds a bit like music..

I've had it for a long time and still can't play it all There are however lots of things that were impossible to me once that now feel comfortable..

Si

allen

I was doing a youtube about something else and I threw in my totally amateur 3 nps legato. Check it out.

Go to 0:53 - I tried to put in the direct link, but the forum software can't cope.

bad:
1. sounds like triplets
2. a bunch of fluffed notes
3. sounds like a scale
good:
1. I managed to exit to a sensible note

grappagreen

allen said:

I was doing a youtube about something else and I threw in my totally amateur 3 nps legato. Check it out.

Go to 0:53 - I tried to put in the direct link, but the forum software can't cope.

bad:
1. sounds like triplets
2. a bunch of fluffed notes
3. sounds like a scale
good:
1. I managed to exit to a sensible note

Hi,

Thanks for posting this. I'll come onto the 3NPS points in a mo.

The 3 most important things about music are timing, timing and timing. OK not strictly true but to my point it's the groove that makes you move.

If I was to give one piece of general advice it would be to focus on timing. Look up subdividing a beat and work with a metronome or groove. ALWAYS tap your foot to the beat as you play.

On the 3NPS points it sounds like triplets because you are playing triplets. To break out of this you need to work on playing 3NPS patterns/scales against a straight 4/4 beat and learning to feel the pulse and avoid the natural emphasis on the first note of the string change. It sounds like fluffed notes because you need to work on your technique to clean up the legato hammers and pulls. It sounds like a scale because you are playing scalar lines! You need to be able to change the patterns you play and John C is a great example of how to do this. Transcribe a few of his lines and you will see how he does it.

Tom Quayle's modern legato course covers all of the above in great detail and provides exercises to help on all aspects.

Hope that helps.

Si

allen

Thanks for the feedback!

Cranky

JohnCordy said:

As a kid I spent hours and hours just running this stuff with a metronome etc. On my channel there's a lessons playlist which has s ton of legato licks and also talking about the approach a bit. Hope that helps!

Oh and Tom Quayle has some really thorough legato stuff and David Beebee, who developed some improved control stuff and got very good at legato as an adult!

I had no idea how reliant I was on alternate picking until trying stuff in your videos.  I’ve been masking my weak fretting muscles and dexterity all this time.

Nor is it easy retraining my brain to only pick once.

Thanks for the proper lesson.  And a bit of brushing up on the modes at that.