Changing Cap Size

Devil#20

If I change the standard -022uF capacitor between the volume and tone pot on a tele for a .033uF what does it do to the frequency profile? Also what size cap and resistor combination should I use for a treble bleed circuit? I've swapped out many a PUP but never really experimented with the caps etc. I'd just like an idea what I should expect. 

Dave_Mc

When you turn the tone knob down it'll eat more into the mids... which will probably sound more or less like it's cutting more treble. I'm not actually sure if you'd be able to hear any difference when the tone knob is up full- I can (just about! and only really when it's on a switch to really instantly hear the difference) hear the difference with the tone knob up full between 22 and 47nF, but I've never tried 22 versus 33 (on a switch, I mean, I've tried it in guitars- theoretically the difference with the tone knob up full will be more subtle so you might not hear it). If you changed to 47nF that would eat even more into the treble as the tone knob was turned down, and you might just about be able to hear a slight difference with the tone knob up full (to my ears, 22nF sounds very slightly brighter, and almost like it has a wider frequency response, though that may be psycho-acoustics!).

It's really up to you regarding the treble bleed circuit. What do you roll your volume knob down for? To go between really distorted and clean? Or between varying degrees of dirt/semi-clean? Do you know if your volume pot is logarithmic or linear?

Devil#20

Dave_Mc said:

When you turn the tone knob down it'll eat more into the mids... which will probably sound more or less like it's cutting more treble. I'm not actually sure if you'd be able to hear any difference when the tone knob is up full- I can (just about! and only really when it's on a switch to really instantly hear the difference) hear the difference with the tone knob up full between 22 and 47nF, but I've never tried 22 versus 33 (on a switch, I mean, I've tried it in guitars- theoretically the difference with the tone knob up full will be more subtle so you might not hear it). If you changed to 47nF that would eat even more into the treble as the tone knob was turned down, and you might just about be able to hear a slight difference with the tone knob up full (to my ears, 22nF sounds very slightly brighter, and almost like it has a wider frequency response, though that may be psycho-acoustics!).

It's really up to you regarding the treble bleed circuit. What do you roll your volume knob down for? To go between really distorted and clean? Or between varying degrees of dirt/semi-clean? Do you know if your volume pot is logarithmic or linear?

Cheers for that. Between distorted and clean on log pots.

PAL

Check out this website it has lots of info...  https://sixstringsupplies.co.uk/pages/installing-a-treble-bleed ;  Hope this helps.

Dave_Mc

Devil#20 said:

Dave_Mc said:

When you turn the tone knob down it'll eat more into the mids... which will probably sound more or less like it's cutting more treble. I'm not actually sure if you'd be able to hear any difference when the tone knob is up full- I can (just about! and only really when it's on a switch to really instantly hear the difference) hear the difference with the tone knob up full between 22 and 47nF, but I've never tried 22 versus 33 (on a switch, I mean, I've tried it in guitars- theoretically the difference with the tone knob up full will be more subtle so you might not hear it). If you changed to 47nF that would eat even more into the treble as the tone knob was turned down, and you might just about be able to hear a slight difference with the tone knob up full (to my ears, 22nF sounds very slightly brighter, and almost like it has a wider frequency response, though that may be psycho-acoustics!).

It's really up to you regarding the treble bleed circuit. What do you roll your volume knob down for? To go between really distorted and clean? Or between varying degrees of dirt/semi-clean? Do you know if your volume pot is logarithmic or linear?

Cheers for that. Between distorted and clean on log pots.

Thanks. That's largely what I do, too. I might be strange, but I prefer a capacitor alone for that (no resistor). I usually prefer 180pF for humbuckers, and 220pF for single coils (though the difference there is pretty subtle, and unless you have a multimeter which measures capacitance so you know the exact value, depending on the tolerance of your caps either rating could overlap the other!).

I also like the "Falbo mod" for treble bleeds (though I think you might need to rewire your tone pot slightly for that, and it might not be worth the bother at least until you see if you like a treble bleed)- it makes the tone knob work a bit better in conjunction with the volume knob when you have a treble bleed fitted. You wire the treble bleed cap from the middle lug of your volume pot to the unused lug on the tone pot. It's actually arguably easier to wire in than a standard treble bleed- as long as the tone pot is already wired the correct way for it. I'm a bit hazy on some of this stuff (someone like @ICBM or @funkfingers could hopefully tell you for sure) as some wiring layouts look different but are actually the same thing, but the way I know to do it which definitely does work is to have a wire going from your volume knob's first lug to the middle lug of the tone pot, and then the tone cap going from the tone pot's first lug to ground. But don't bother rewiring your tone pot just yet in case you don't have to!

Devil#20

Dave_Mc said:

Devil#20 said:

Dave_Mc said:

When you turn the tone knob down it'll eat more into the mids... which will probably sound more or less like it's cutting more treble. I'm not actually sure if you'd be able to hear any difference when the tone knob is up full- I can (just about! and only really when it's on a switch to really instantly hear the difference) hear the difference with the tone knob up full between 22 and 47nF, but I've never tried 22 versus 33 (on a switch, I mean, I've tried it in guitars- theoretically the difference with the tone knob up full will be more subtle so you might not hear it). If you changed to 47nF that would eat even more into the treble as the tone knob was turned down, and you might just about be able to hear a slight difference with the tone knob up full (to my ears, 22nF sounds very slightly brighter, and almost like it has a wider frequency response, though that may be psycho-acoustics!).

It's really up to you regarding the treble bleed circuit. What do you roll your volume knob down for? To go between really distorted and clean? Or between varying degrees of dirt/semi-clean? Do you know if your volume pot is logarithmic or linear?

Cheers for that. Between distorted and clean on log pots.

Thanks. That's largely what I do, too. I might be strange, but I prefer a capacitor alone for that (no resistor). I usually prefer 180pF for humbuckers, and 220pF for single coils (though the difference there is pretty subtle, and unless you have a multimeter which measures capacitance so you know the exact value, depending on the tolerance of your caps either rating could overlap the other!).

I also like the "Falbo mod" for treble bleeds (though I think you might need to rewire your tone pot slightly for that, and it might not be worth the bother at least until you see if you like a treble bleed)- it makes the tone knob work a bit better in conjunction with the volume knob when you have a treble bleed fitted. You wire the treble bleed cap from the middle lug of your volume pot to the unused lug on the tone pot. It's actually arguably easier to wire in than a standard treble bleed- as long as the tone pot is already wired the correct way for it. I'm a bit hazy on some of this stuff (someone like @ICBM or @funkfingers could hopefully tell you for sure) as some wiring layouts look different but are actually the same thing, but the way I know to do it which definitely does work is to have a wire going from your volume knob's first lug to the middle lug of the tone pot, and then the tone cap going from the tone pot's first lug to ground. But don't bother rewiring your tone pot just yet in case you don't have to!

Re-wiring isn't an issue because I'm going to redo it anyway. It looks like the previous owner soldered it blindfold. They obviously didn't do the Oak Grigsby soldering because that's OK. It has a treble bleed circuit in the control cavity but it's come adrift, again because it wasn't soldered properly. Not sure what size the cap is but I can measure that with my LCR meter. It physically tiny. 

Funkfingers

My only comment at this point in this Discussion is this. Are you all using the technical expression "treble bleed" to mean the same thing?

Guitar tone controls are passive low pass filters. They "bleed" the high frequencies in a full range signal to ground via the combination of a variable resistor and a capacitor.

The thing across the input and output terminals of a volume control pot is a treble bypass.

• 

ICBM will give you a proper electrician's explanation. 

I merely describe circuitry that I have tried and offer opinions on the results.

Frank Falbo is a very smart cookie. I had occasional discussions with him on a couple of American forums. I do not claim him to be a friend of mine.

Dave_Mc

@Funkfingers I'm using "treble bleed" to describe what you describe as a "treble pass"- the capacitor across the volume pot lugs. I know it's wrong, but it's the term that almost everyone uses these days- like tremolo. I just googled "treble pass" to prove a point, and while I actually did get hits, they were all called "treble bleed". So calling them treble passes (without explaining the treble bleed thing, which you and @ICBM always do ) runs the risk of just confusing people. I think the ship has sailed, unfortunately. (I gave you a wisdom anyway )

I could be misremembering, but didn't something go belly-up on Frank Falbo a while back? I think he ran his own guitar company/luthiery or something like that... I know he worked for Seymour Duncan for a while before that (he designed the P-Rails, didn't he?). EDIT: Oh he seems to work for Fishman Fluence now...

@Devil#20 If you have to rewire anyway and you can be bothered, then you can rewire it the way I said. Here's a couple of links to it: 

https://www.mylespaul.com/threads/tapered-treble-bleed.82799/
https://www.jemsite.com/threads/hi-pass-filter-trick-im-an-idiot.31420/

Funkfingers

Dave_Mc said:

didn't something go belly-up on Frank Falbo a while back? I think he ran his own guitar company/luthiery or something like that... I know he worked for Seymour Duncan for a while before that (he designed the P-Rails, didn't he?). EDIT: Oh he seems to work for Fishman Fluence now.

Falbo devised the P-Rails pickup but, because he was employed by Seymour Duncan Inc., they owned the rights to the design. (The management politics at SD Inc. are sub-optimal. Seymour tinkers away in his workshop. His ex-wife and her new partner have a vice-like grip on the coffers and the decision making.) I don't know how the proceeds from the P-Rails are divided. Suffice it to say, who would have paid sixty five Dollars for a novel but fugly pickup from an unknown maker? 

Roughly five years ago, there was a legal dispute with Abasi Guitars over non-fulfilment of a manufacturing contract. The word embezzlement was bandied about. 

Turned out, Falbo Guitars had overstretched itself. The business was defaulting in all directions. Utility bills, workshop rent and staff wages were not being paid. At one point, Falbo went on YouTube, promoting the Abasi multi-string design as if it were his own work. Presumably, all assets needed selling just to stay solvent.

Abasi Guitars were eventually manufactured elsewhere.

AFAIK, nobody has litigated against Falbo over his Intension™ string anchoring concept.

There are YouTube videos of Falbo Guitars at 2020 Winter NAMM, demonstrating assorted solidbody electric guitars of not massively original design. 

Anyone familiar with Falbo's video presentations for SD Inc. at music trade shows will know that he knows his stuff and that his enthusiasm is infectious. This is one reason why Fishman hired him. I do not know how much input he has with Fluence pickup design and R&D testing. There is probably a non-disclosure agreement in place that forbids Falbo from revealing anything.

Dave_Mc

That's it, the Abasi thing. Thanks for reminding me @Funkfingers (and the other info too!)

Devil#20

Dave_Mc said:

@Funkfingers I'm using "treble bleed" to describe what you describe as a "treble pass"- the capacitor across the volume pot lugs. I know it's wrong, but it's the term that almost everyone uses these days- like tremolo. I just googled "treble pass" to prove a point, and while I actually did get hits, they were all called "treble bleed". So calling them treble passes (without explaining the treble bleed thing, which you and @ICBM always do ) runs the risk of just confusing people. I think the ship has sailed, unfortunately. (I gave you a wisdom anyway )

I could be misremembering, but didn't something go belly-up on Frank Falbo a while back? I think he ran his own guitar company/luthiery or something like that... I know he worked for Seymour Duncan for a while before that (he designed the P-Rails, didn't he?). EDIT: Oh he seems to work for Fishman Fluence now...

@Devil#20 If you have to rewire anyway and you can be bothered, then you can rewire it the way I said. Here's a couple of links to it: 

https://www.mylespaul.com/threads/tapered-treble-bleed.82799/
https://www.jemsite.com/threads/hi-pass-filter-trick-im-an-idiot.31420/

Thanks @Dave_Mc I've save those links in my all things guitar bookmarks folder. As it happens the control cavity had one of those ceramic 503 100v caps in there which were used on earlly fenders. They are nominally 0.05uF but have a hopeless tolerance of about 80% either side so could be anything so I  ripped that out and put a Sprague 0.033uF in there. The treble bleed or pass also uses the same shitty ceramic type capacitor in there so I'll make my own up at some point with a Sprague cap and relevant resistor and replace it. It was actually soldered in anyway as one of the legs had some away from the pot. At the moment the guitar still sounds pretty good though when the volume is rolled off. 

Dave_Mc

Devil#20 said:

Dave_Mc said:

@Funkfingers I'm using "treble bleed" to describe what you describe as a "treble pass"- the capacitor across the volume pot lugs. I know it's wrong, but it's the term that almost everyone uses these days- like tremolo. I just googled "treble pass" to prove a point, and while I actually did get hits, they were all called "treble bleed". So calling them treble passes (without explaining the treble bleed thing, which you and @ICBM always do ) runs the risk of just confusing people. I think the ship has sailed, unfortunately. (I gave you a wisdom anyway )

I could be misremembering, but didn't something go belly-up on Frank Falbo a while back? I think he ran his own guitar company/luthiery or something like that... I know he worked for Seymour Duncan for a while before that (he designed the P-Rails, didn't he?). EDIT: Oh he seems to work for Fishman Fluence now...

@Devil#20 If you have to rewire anyway and you can be bothered, then you can rewire it the way I said. Here's a couple of links to it: 

https://www.mylespaul.com/threads/tapered-treble-bleed.82799/
https://www.jemsite.com/threads/hi-pass-filter-trick-im-an-idiot.31420/

Thanks @Dave_Mc I've save those links in my all things guitar bookmarks folder. As it happens the control cavity had one of those ceramic 503 100v caps in there which were used on earlly fenders. They are nominally 0.05uF but have a hopeless tolerance of about 80% either side so could be anything so I  ripped that out and put a Sprague 0.033uF in there. The treble bleed or pass also uses the same shitty ceramic type capacitor in there so I'll make my own up at some point with a Sprague cap and relevant resistor and replace it. It was actually soldered in anyway as one of the legs had some away from the pot. At the moment the guitar still sounds pretty good though when the volume is rolled off. 

Oof 80% isn't great! You can definitely get ceramic caps with much better tolerances than that, though. I think the 180pF ones I use for treble bleeds are like 2% or something like that. They were like 46p each, though. Regular 20% ones are more like 3-4p each, but CPC didn't have any of those in 180pF...