The F1 thread

gavin_axecaster

Why would Button say "Sorry about that I didn't see you"?

Hamilton was closing on Button at a rapid rate and obviously had the pace to pass him. As I said, the team should have warned Button that Hamilton was faster and was going to overtake.

The stewards judged it a racing incident. I tend to agree due to the conditions.

The point still stands that Button drove into Hamilton, not the other way round.

Cols

Good grief, this old chestnut again?

Hamilton tried to drive into a gap which was always going to close as Button moved over to take the normal racing line.  Button was gentlemanly enough to apologise for not seeing him (in heavy spray, mark you), and Hamilton was gallant enough to admit that it was entirely his fault.

They’re not arguing about it.  Why are we?

Fretwired

Cols said:

Good grief, this old chestnut again?

Hamilton tried to drive into a gap which was always going to close as Button moved over to take the normal racing line.  Button was gentlemanly enough to apologise for not seeing him (in heavy spray, mark you), and Hamilton was gallant enough to admit that it was entirely his fault.

They’re not arguing about it.  Why are we?

Well put ....

Garthy

Fretwired said:

Still think Max will get there .. Red Bull have the best car on the grid. It's the engine that let's them down. If Honda get their act together then Max will be starting from the front of the grid. Hamilton was lucky in that he was in a fast car when he started. When McLaren went off the boil Hamilton was hitting everyone like Max .. lots of errors. He even hit Jenson Button when he was his team mate. Plus he had run-ins with Massa and drove into Kimi in the pit lane.

Here's Lewis in action ... his best crashes and spins ... just like Max ....

Many clips in that video includes tyre failures, suspension failures, several brake failures and other drivers hitting him. It's nothing like Max.

Fretwired

Garthy said:

Fretwired said:

Still think Max will get there .. Red Bull have the best car on the grid. It's the engine that let's them down. If Honda get their act together then Max will be starting from the front of the grid. Hamilton was lucky in that he was in a fast car when he started. When McLaren went off the boil Hamilton was hitting everyone like Max .. lots of errors. He even hit Jenson Button when he was his team mate. Plus he had run-ins with Massa and drove into Kimi in the pit lane.

Here's Lewis in action ... his best crashes and spins ... just like Max ....

Many clips in that video includes tyre failures, suspension failures, several brake failures and other drivers hitting him. It's nothing like Max.

Disagree .. Lewis was over driving the car just like Max does sometimes .. Button wasn't shredding tyres .. a major cock-up was the team that left him out too long when he wanted to come in and that cost him the championship.

Max has improved a lot given his age when he came into F1 ...

Garthy

Jesus Christ.

prowla

Verstappen didn't need to get into a situation with a back-marker who was trying to unlap himself; he either knew Ocon was there or he expected him to have jumped off the track in deference.

markr76

I think Verstappen should have given Ocon more room and he shouldn't have gotten himself into that situation. But you have to remember Verstappen is young and raw. He'll start settling down with experience. But he has to learn to harness his aggression and not loose it. I think he will be a future champion if he can do this.
As for Vettel, there was a comment earlier saying he's overrated. I don't agree with that as he's a 4 time world champion. I know what it takes to win world championships and it's not easy winning a race. Let alone 1 championship. I think he has lost a bit of his hunger. There is also an incredible amount of pressure to perform in a Ferrari. More so than at red bull and our team (Mercedes.) I think Ferrari are their own worst enemy at times. Too much of a blame culture there. If they sort that out they'll be extremely strong.

Fretwired

markr76 said:

I think Verstappen should have given Ocon more room and he shouldn't have gotten himself into that situation. But you have to remember Verstappen is young and raw. He'll start settling down with experience. But he has to learn to harness his aggression and not loose it. I think he will be a future champion if he can do this.
As for Vettel, there was a comment earlier saying he's overrated. I don't agree with that as he's a 4 time world champion. I know what it takes to win world championships and it's not easy winning a race. Let alone 1 championship. I think he has lost a bit of his hunger. There is also an incredible amount of pressure to perform in a Ferrari. More so than at red bull and our team (Mercedes.) I think Ferrari are their own worst enemy at times. Too much of a blame culture there. If they sort that out they'll be extremely strong.

Agree Vestappen should have just let Ocon through just like Lewis did for Vestappen.

I think Vettel's currently overrated - he makes too many mistakes and is bad tempered (look at the weighbridge incident in Brazil and last year he deliberately drove into Hamilton after the red mist descended). He arguably had the better car for most of this season but made lots of costly mistakes (for example, Germany in the rain). I'm not sure he can handle the pressure any more.  Singapore was interesting - Vettel was favourite for pole but was third. Hamilton pulled out a stellar lap for pole on a circuit that Mercedes usually struggle on. Hamilton raised his game in 2018 and Vettel seemed to wilt under the pressure. Vettel looked shell-shocked in the post quali interview.

I think there are other drivers in the midfield who could do a better job at Ferrari which is why I think Ferrari have decided to mix things up by hiring Charles Leclerc rather than giving Kimi another year. It will be interesting to see how Vettel responds to his new teammate who has performed well this year. I wonder if Ferrari will let Leclerc race Vettel or whether Vettel expects to remain number one driver?

No doubt my view will be in the minority .. ;-)

thumpingrug

I suspect that Vettel will assume he should be No1 and expect that treatment from the team.  I anticipate that Leclerc will beat him soundly in the first few races of the new season and Ferrari will have to instruct Vettel to be a back up driver.  It will be his last season. 

prowla

I like Vettel - he has a go, is open and straight-talking in his interview and he's a gentleman (congratulating Hamilton on winning the championship).

The last race was dictated (again) by tyre management, which is a bit (ahem) tiring.

Fretwired

prowla said:

I like Vettel - he has a go, is open and straight-talking in his interview and he's a gentleman (congratulating Hamilton on winning the championship).

The last race was dictated (again) by tyre management, which is a bit (ahem) tiring.

Apparently Vettel had a technical issue which meant his car wasn't running optimally which is why he let Kimi overtake him and why he couldn't make the podium. Lewis had his engine turned right down as at one point his engineers thought it would explode within a single lap - something to do with the exhaust leading to very high engine temps.

Boromedic

Vettel is an extremely good driver but has had a lot of good fortune along the way. He may have 4 titles but I don't believe he's done enough yet to rank among the greats. Lewis has and currently except for Alonso is the only great left in the sport. Lewis would've romped home with the title in that Ferrari, it's been the best car over the majority of races.

Max may well get there if he sorts himself out a bit, which it seems like he is. Should be another good season if LeClerc can live up to his hype.

Fretwired

The BBC will show coverage of every ABB FIA Formula E Championship race from December. Races for the series will be featured live on the BBC Sport website, BBC iPlayer and BBC Red Button.

Got to be worth a watch.

Teetonetal

the difference for me is that I’ve always felt Lewis has always tried to get better where as Max comes across very much that he is always right. Vettel does really not seem to have got better, he won 4, just, in a very strong car... but under pressure he just doesn’t make good decisions consistently well.

stickyfiddle

Teetonetal said:

the difference for me is that I’ve always felt Lewis has always tried to get better where as Max comes across very much that he is always right. Vettel does really not seem to have got better, he won 4, just, in a very strong car... but under pressure he just doesn’t make good decisions consistently well.

I’d agree with that. Lewis started believing he was amazing, learned to pick himself up after 2012 (possibly in part with Brawn’s guidance), and has consistently got better every year since. I suspect having a chronic hardworker as a teammate helped with that. Rosberg consistently pushes him harder and harder, and I hope history judges him very well - he beat Schumacher AND Hamilton in equal machinery. 

Vettel is clearly a properly great driver but does keep a cool enough head under pressure. I hope he gets a title for Ferrari, but I don’t think he’s as good as Hamilton overall. 

Max is just not there yet. He’s got the speed bit and the “ballsy overtaking” bit, but needs the “big picture” bit; the ability to know when to fight, and the realisation that he doesn’t have to fight every corner with every driver. 

Garthy

Fretwired said:

Garthy said:

Fretwired said:

Here's Lewis in action ... his best crashes and spins ... just like Max ....

0.00- Monaco Practice 2007, Driver error in FP1, to be fair it was only his 5th race but have a biscuit. Finished 2nd.

0.03- Germany Qualli 07, Wheel nut not located properly and destroyed the tyre, finished 9th, ending a run of 9 podiums.

0.11- Turkey 2007- Tyre de-lamination.

0.15- Japan 2007- Kubica understeered into Hamilton.

0.19- China 2007, driver error, a more experienced/intelligent driver would have pitted earlier. 2 biscuits.

0.25- Belgium 2008 FP1, driver error of no consequence to the race, especially with retrospective rule making stripping victory

0.29- Italy 2008 FP1, driver error testing the limits.

0.34- Britain 2008 FP1, as above. His race was one of his best, class of one while the Ferraris spun 9 times in the race,

0.37- Turkey 2008 FP1, another harmless spin of no consequence, finished 2nd in race.

0.42- Germany 2007 FP2, harmless practice spin.

0.46- Bahrain 2008 race- runs into the back of Alonso.

0.49- Monaco 2008 race, tapped wall causing puncture, like almost everyone else that day. I believe he won.

0.53- Canada 2008 race, total brain fade along with future WDC Rosberg.

1.04-Britain 2008 race, like everyone else he spun, unlike 7 others including Button he didn't retire from it.

1.08- Japan 2008 race- watch this from the reverse angle. The stewarding was so bad it was overhauled for 2009.

1.13- Valencia 2008 practice- harmless spin, finished 2nd.

1.16- Bahrain 2008 FP1, big accident when spun on a kerb (this is the thumbnail crash still above)

1.20- Bahrain 2008 FP1, same accident.

1.27- Spain 2008 FP1, finished 3rd in the race.

1.29- Belgium 2008 FP3, a spin, wow.

1.31- China 2007 FP2, spun but had bigger problems 2 days later.

1.36- Monaco 2009 Q1, driver error into the barriers.

1.45- Britain 2009, spin during free practice.

1.49- Germany 2009 FP1, spin.

1.52- Valencia 2009 FP2, spin.

1.56- Italy 2009, big shit or bust move on JB, he had to pass Button for 6th to stay in the WDC so nothing to lose.

2.01- Brazil 2009 FP2, ran wide out of T5. Finished on the podium in the race.

2.05- Australia 2010 race, speared by Webber.

2.09- Malaysia 2010 Q1. Spin, like Button, Alonso and Massa, he stayed in the garage too late. Finished 6th.

2.14- Spain 2010 race- puncture sent him into the barriers.

2.17- Spain 2010 race- above onboard.

2.24- Turkey 2010 FP2, huge slide, won the race.

2.29- Belgium 2010 race- ran wide on slicks in the rain, won the race while Alonso stuck it in the barriers.

2.33- Germany 2010 FP1 big crash in wet session.

2.36- Germany 2010 replay.

2.40- Singapore 2010 race. Racing incident between MW & LH.

2.44-Japan 2010 FP1, crashes at Degner 2. Replacement gearbox failed in the race finishing 5th.

2.48- Japan 2010 replay of above.

2.51- Moncao 2011 race, just fucking moronic driving.

2.55- Monaco 2011 race- to be fair they both went sideways over the apex of T1 when PM turned very early.

2.59- Canada 2011 race, JB squeezed LH against the pitwall, both blamed themselves as per JBs autobiography.

3.03-  Hungary 2011 race, spin & drivethough.

3.07- Spa 2011 race. Watch the Coulthard explanation, it's the first result of Hamilton/Kobayashi/Spa in youtube.

3.12- India 2011 race. Massa awarded a drive through for causing a collision.

3.16- Valencia 2012 race- Similar to Max/Kimi in Japan, PM left the track then rejoined like a dart.

3.21- Belgium 2012 race - Grosjean earns a 1 race ban for the biggest crash of the season involving 5 cars.

3.26- Brazil 2012 race- Hulk drops it while overtaking Hamilton for the lead.

3.30- USA 2012 FP1- spin, won the race.

3.32- Australia 2013 Q1, spun in rain, qualified 3rd behind the redbulls.

3.39- Britain 2013 Race- tyre exploded, also happened to Perez, JEV and Massa, causing new construction method.

3.47- Canada 2013 FP2- spin. qualified 2nd.

3.51- Belgium 2013 FP3- spin, took pole position and finished 3rd.

3.55- Germany 2013 FP1, spin yet another pole position the next day.

4.00- Abu Dhabi 2013 FP2, ran wide & spun near the end of the session.

4.04- Brazil 2013 FP1, spin into T1

4.08- Brazil 2013. Fuck knows, can't see.

4.11- Brazil 2013 FP3, spin in T4.

4.16- Jerez winter testing 2014, front wing failure.

4.22- Austria 2014 Q2, lost it on the brakes.

4.26-Germany 2014 Q1, brake failure.

4.30 -Germany 2014 replay.

4.34- Germany 2014 race, misunderstanding with Button, no harm done, finished 3rd.

4.37- Hungary 2014 race, dropped it from pitlane start, no consequence.

4.43- Japan 2014 FP3, ran wide in T1, hitting barriers in T2. Won the race.

4.51- Brazil  2014 race, overcooked it into T4 finished 2nd.

4.55- Brazil  2014 FP2, spin into T1.

5.01- Russia 2014 FP3, spin. Got the pole and the win.

5.04- Spain 2015 FP1 spin in T3, again of no consequence.

5.08- Spain 2015 replay

5.14- Canada 2015 FP1 spin. Got the pole and win.

5.17- Canada 2015 FP2 slid off in the rain.

5.25- Austria 2015 Q3, spun off but still got the pole.

5.27- Austria 2015 replay

5.31- Britain 2015 FP2, spun on the kerb out of stowe, grand slam of pole, fastest lap and win.

5.36- Hungary 2015 Race, brain fade into T6 knocking himself down to 10th.

5.40- Russia 2015 FP1, spin. won the race.

5.44- USA 2015 FP2, spin in the wet, won the race and the 2015 championship.

5.48- Mexico 2015 FP1, spin on a track where Vettel spun coming into the pits and Max caused a red flag.

5.54- Brazil 2015 FP3, spin while topping the time sheets.

5.58- Abu Dhabi 2015 FP1

6.02- China 2016 FP2, slow spin in T11 least of his problems after Nasr hit him in the race.

6.06- Bahrain 2016 race- hit by Bottas going into T1 L1.

6.11- Russia 2016 FP1- spin into T2.

6.14- Spain 2016 race - driven clean off the track by Rosberg.

6.23- Azerbijan 2016 Q3, clipped barrier breaking suspension.

6.27- Austria 2016 FP1, spun off at T3, as did Rosberg a few moments later.

6.31- Austria 2016 race, Rosberg simply didn't turn, driving Hamilton off the track, but Hamilton won the race.

6.35- Brazil 2017 Q1, crashed out with his first error of the year after winning the WDC for the 4th time.

6.38- Brazil 2017 replay

Garthy

Nearly 90 clips edited to 'prove' that Hamilton couldn't drive a greasy stick up a horses arse. The video clearly has an agenda and speaks volumes not only of its creator but also of those who cite it as an example of their beliefs. No points were lost or championships altered during a spin in free practice.

If we remove non fault accidents, mechanical failures, tyre failures and events that had no effect on the weekend or championship we are left with:

0.19- China 2007, driver error, a more experienced/intelligent driver would have pitted earlier.

0.46- Bahrain 2008 race- runs into the back of Alonso.

0.53- Canada 2008 race, total brain fade along with future WDC Rosberg.

1.16- Bahrain 2008 FP1, big accident when spun on a kerb (this is the thumbnail crash still above)

1.36- Monaco 2009 Q1, driver error into the barriers.

2.40- Singapore 2010 race. Racing incident between MW & LH

2.51- Moncao 2011 race, just fucking moronic driving.

2.59- Canada 2011 race, JB squeezed LH against the pitwall, both blamed themselves as per JBs autobiography.

3.03-  Hungary 2011 race, spin & drivethough.

5.36- Hungary 2015 Race, brain fade into T6 knocking himself down to 10th.

6.23- Azerbaijan 2016 Q3, clipped barrier breaking suspension.

11 events of note from your video in 12 seasons, 228 starts, 5 world championships, 72 wins (2nd on all time list)  82 pole positions (record holder) 133 podiums and 41 fastest laps. Only 8 of the above happened in a race, of those 8 only 2 had a definite impact on the championship China 2007, but then the mystery gearbox gremlin or team orders in Monaco also robbed him of points and he only needed 1. The other is Azerbaijan 2016 where a 2nd behind Nico would have been enough but on the other hand if Nico hadn't run him off the road in Spain the 7 point swing meant he'd have won the WDC by 2 points too.

Meanwhile back to Max, he lost points in Australia, Bahrain, China, Azerbaijan, Monaco, Italy, Japan, & Brazil. 8 events in one season that cost him over 100 points, even with the modern scoring system LH hasn't lost that many points in the above examples in his entire career. Max had a genuine shot at the title this year and despite his mistakes in the second half of this season only Hamilton scored more.

I can't help feel that this is a waste of time as you've been predicting Hamilton's sacking for the last five years

Cols

Genuinely haven’t got the attention span to read through that lot.  Cut to the chase, what’s the conclusion?

Boromedic

Bless you @Garthy that must've took ages! Fair play to you, I think Lewis is a legend and that video was bollox tbh, I think you're being harsh about China 07 as well. The team kept him out when he wanted to pit as he knew his tyres were fucked, inexperience probably.