The F1 thread

boogieman

prowla said:

There are some drivers who are following the rules and there are some who think they don't apply to them.

There seems to be some pressure to change the rules, which may be the way forward.

But meanwhile it's not a level playing field.

Verstappen forced Leclerc off the track.

Leclerc should have established himself by not giving way; they would both have been out of this race, but a line would have been set.

As it is, he's just set himself up as easy meat for anybody who wants to put their elbows out.

Great drive by Verstappen though; without him, the race would've just been the normal procession.

(Interesting that both Hamilton and Vettel compromised their races by driving over the kerbs and damaging their cars.) (Plus Fezza stuffed Vettel with the pit stop.)

I don’t think LeClerc “gave way”, rather Max forced him off. I don’t see the point of him deliberately crashing into Max just to prove a point, it’s his job to finish the race in the highest position possible. 

SouthpawMark

Love it when Ferrari don’t get their own way. Such an arrogant team, who think they have a divine right to win everything, and that all opponents should get out of their way at all times. Grosjean would be the perfect driver for them if he wasn’t so crap. 

stickyfiddle

Verstappen never yields. At the moment (and under current regs) he breaks the rules with about 20% of his overtakes and only gets a penalties for what feels like about 50% of those. 

Touching Bottas in the Monaco pitlane should have had him on a much bigger penalty than a 5s time addition. 

Similarly this time he ran Charles off the road (you can see him open up the steering wheel just before they touch), and if there'd been gravel or a wall on the outside of the track Leclerc's race would have been over. I'd much rather see a blanket "always leave one car's gap when alongside someone else" rule with a standard penalty applied every time it's broken, in an attempt to recapture the stuff of Villeneuve/Arnoux battle - plenty of wheelbanging but nobody running the other guy off the track.

Alternatively, let's let Max, Perez and KMag play bumper cars and I'll go watch WEC. 

TimmyO

stickyfiddle said:

Verstappen never yields. At the moment (and under current regs) he breaks the rules with about 20% of his overtakes and only gets a penalties for what feels like about 50% of those. 

Touching Bottas in the Monaco pitlane should have had him on a much bigger penalty than a 5s time addition. 

Similarly this time he ran Charles off the road (you can see him open up the steering wheel just before they touch), and if there'd been gravel or a wall on the outside of the track Leclerc's race would have been over. I'd much rather see a blanket "always leave one car's gap when alongside someone else" rule with a standard penalty applied every time it's broken, in an attempt to recapture the stuff of Villeneuve/Arnoux battle - plenty of wheelbanging but nobody running the other guy off the track.

Alternatively, let's let Max, Perez and KMag play bumper cars and I'll go watch WEC. 

See, I'm normally right with you on Verstappen's deliberate "break the rules then challenge them to apply it" approach, but imo on this occasion he'd taken the position and was on the racing line - at that point Leclerc can either back off, crash, or run wide - all 3 are decisions he is able to make - he didn't have to run wide, so wasn't forced there - once Max's car was on the racing line and at least fully alongside, Leclerc had lost the place - if Leclerc had taken a better defensive line he'd have kept the place. 

Cols

Majorscale said:

Excellent result. So happy for Max and Honda. 

When he stuttered at the start I was disappointed as it looked to be another Ferrari/Merc battle. He did good. Big nail in Gasley’s 2020 RB seat...

Gasly’s had his chips.  The only question is whether he’ll make it to the end of the year before getting replaced.  I suspect the only reason he hasn’t got the boot yet is because there’s no-one in the RB driver programme to fill the gap which would be left by shuffling Albon/Kvyat up from Toro Rosso.  There have been mutterings about Hulkenberg for next year, but it’s unlikely - Red Bull need to promote internally to justify their enormously expensive Young Driver programme.

For whatever reason, Marko has had it in for him ever since he moved up to the senior team.    I have no idea why he deliberately creates such a toxic environment - particularly on the drivers side, he seems to decide who his favourite is and then gets to work making life miserable for the other guy.

 That can’t make it easy for the poor chap, but the fact remains that he hasn’t even been close enough to be an effective No 2, let alone offer any challenge to Verstappen.  Listening to some of the comments from Helmut suggests that the reason is that the characteristics of the Red Bull don’t suit Gasly’s driving style.

I’ve never really bought that as an excuse.  In my opinion, if you’re a professional racing driver your job is to be able to jump into any car and drive it faster than anyone else.  Whatever characteristics the car has, your job is to find the best driving approach to make it go quickly.

stickyfiddle

TimmyO said:

stickyfiddle said:

Verstappen never yields. At the moment (and under current regs) he breaks the rules with about 20% of his overtakes and only gets a penalties for what feels like about 50% of those. 

Touching Bottas in the Monaco pitlane should have had him on a much bigger penalty than a 5s time addition. 

Similarly this time he ran Charles off the road (you can see him open up the steering wheel just before they touch), and if there'd been gravel or a wall on the outside of the track Leclerc's race would have been over. I'd much rather see a blanket "always leave one car's gap when alongside someone else" rule with a standard penalty applied every time it's broken, in an attempt to recapture the stuff of Villeneuve/Arnoux battle - plenty of wheelbanging but nobody running the other guy off the track.

Alternatively, let's let Max, Perez and KMag play bumper cars and I'll go watch WEC. 

See, I'm normally right with you on Verstappen's deliberate "break the rules then challenge them to apply it" approach, but imo on this occasion he'd taken the position and was on the racing line - at that point Leclerc can either back off, crash, or run wide - all 3 are decisions he is able to make - he didn't have to run wide, so wasn't forced there - once Max's car was on the racing line and at least fully alongside, Leclerc had lost the place - if Leclerc had taken a better defensive line he'd have kept the place. 

I don't think he'd quite done it, as if he'd left LC the space it would've been the same as the previous lap. From here, they looked exactly side by side at the point they touched, whereas on the previous lap he'd actually been further in front at the same point, but lost to the more powerful Ferrari on the next straight. 

I'm not against that kind of race, I'm just exhausted by the inconsistency of rules, and more importantly, that the current rules are almost impossible to apply consistently. I'd rather have a simpler ruleset that gives objective measures for triggering of penalties, e.g. you must leave a full car width at all times when the other guy's front wheel is in alongside or front of your rear. 

Then it's down to the drivers' judgement to get it right at the time, and the stewards will have a far easier life.

Boromedic

"I’ve never really bought that as an excuse.  In my opinion, if you’re a professional racing driver your job is to be able to jump into any car and drive it faster than anyone else.  Whatever characteristics the car has, your job is to find the best driving approach to make it go quickly."

Is that opinion due to your vast experience of racing single seaters at the highest level? Of course a particular car can unsettle a certain driver's style, we've seen that a few times over the years. The best can drive around it, but that's what separates them, and is why Vettel isn't as good as Hamilton and Alonso. Gasly was never going to be a world beater.

Modellista

TimmyO said:

stickyfiddle said:

Verstappen never yields. At the moment (and under current regs) he breaks the rules with about 20% of his overtakes and only gets a penalties for what feels like about 50% of those. 

Touching Bottas in the Monaco pitlane should have had him on a much bigger penalty than a 5s time addition. 

Similarly this time he ran Charles off the road (you can see him open up the steering wheel just before they touch), and if there'd been gravel or a wall on the outside of the track Leclerc's race would have been over. I'd much rather see a blanket "always leave one car's gap when alongside someone else" rule with a standard penalty applied every time it's broken, in an attempt to recapture the stuff of Villeneuve/Arnoux battle - plenty of wheelbanging but nobody running the other guy off the track.

Alternatively, let's let Max, Perez and KMag play bumper cars and I'll go watch WEC. 

See, I'm normally right with you on Verstappen's deliberate "break the rules then challenge them to apply it" approach, but imo on this occasion he'd taken the position and was on the racing line - at that point Leclerc can either back off, crash, or run wide - all 3 are decisions he is able to make - he didn't have to run wide, so wasn't forced there - once Max's car was on the racing line and at least fully alongside, Leclerc had lost the place - if Leclerc had taken a better defensive line he'd have kept the place. 

^ This.

There's an easy way to avoid getting forced off the track by Verstappen.  Don't let him get alongside you in the first place.

Verstappen was clearly far faster than Leclerc.  Leclerc could either accept this and let him past, properly defend on the inside, or do some half-arsed defending and complain to the stewards in the hope they will penalise the other car.  He took the dishonourable option unfortunately.  Good decision by the stewards not to intervene, and if Verstappen's aggressive style gives us more Grands Prix like this, I hope he keeps it up.

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

Or Le Clerc could have held back a moment and try the 'cutback' behind him onto the inside to get a better run on Verstappen down the next straight.

If you know anything about Verstappen's style, you know he's gonna go for the ambitious lunge down the inside. Leclerc could/should have gambled on him over cooking it on the brakes down the inside and tried the cut-back. Would have been a less risky strategy than going shoulder to shoulder with Max on the outside, as you know for fact Max is never gonna yield in that situation.

Still, great racing from all involved, and the right decision from the stewards. With Max, Leclerc and Norris all looking top notch, the next generation once Hamilton and Vettel etc have moved on looks in good hands. 

Modellista

stickyfiddle said:

Similarly this time he ran Charles off the road (you can see him open up the steering wheel just before they touch), 

Excellent work by Verstappen to take the racing line to get the fastest exit from the corner and make the overtake of the slower car stick.  He didn't do any more than take the racing line, the steering was always 90 degrees or more to the right. 




Taking the racing line isn't forcing someone off IMHO.  This is what forcing someone off at that corner looks like:

Modellista

Dontgiveupyourdayjob said:

Or Le Clerc could have held back a moment and try the 'cutback' behind him onto the inside to get a better run on Verstappen down the next straight.

If you know anything about Verstappen's style, you know he's gonna go for the ambitious lunge down the inside. Leclerc could/should have gambled on him over cooking it on the brakes down the inside and tried the cut-back. Would have been a less risky strategy than going shoulder to shoulder with Max on the outside, as you know for fact Max is never gonna yield in that situation.

Still, great racing from all involved, and the right decision from the stewards. With Max, Leclerc and Norris all looking top notch, the next generation once Hamilton and Vettel etc have moved on looks in good hands. 

Yep, totally.  Hanging on the outside hoping for a penalty against Max was Leclerc's weakest option.

I'm also really excited for the new blood coming through.  Norris indeed looking very promising.  And Red Bull winning with Mclaren strong in the points - what is this, 2012??!!

sinbaadi

Max took that corner wider than the previous lap if I recall correctly, and the only reason for that was to squeeze Leclerc out earlier in the corner and reduce any chance that he might still be alongside at the exit.

In theory he is entitled to take whichever line is his preferred line as long as he doesn't deliberately crowd another driver off the track.  
Similarly, Leclerc is, in theory, responsible for avoiding contact with a car with a significant overlap on the inside.  He should leave space. 

The problem is that he did leave space, plenty on the inside.  At that point I don't think he is even trying to maintain the place by flying around the outside, and still Max comes over and hits him.

It's very hard to blame Max, but also very hard to ask anything at all more of Leclerc.

stickyfiddle

Never mind the penalty chat, this photo is everything

goldtop

sinbaadi said:

Max took that corner wider than the previous lap if I recall correctly, and the only reason for that was to squeeze Leclerc out earlier in the corner and reduce any chance that he might still be alongside at the exit.

In theory he is entitled to take whichever line is his preferred line as long as he doesn't deliberately crowd another driver off the track. 

That was Rosberg's take on it, too (and he loves Max's driving).

Cols

Rich Energy have cancelled their title sponsorship of Haas, citing “poor performance”.

Wonder I’d they actually managed to make any sponsorship payments to Haas?

TimmyO

Cols said:

Rich Energy have cancelled their title sponsorship of Haas, citing “poor performance”.

Wonder I’d they actually managed to make any sponsorship payments to Haas?

yes Twitter had some fun with their (pretty abrupt) announcement of it. :-) 

stickyfiddle

TheJudge speculating Rich's twitter has been hacked. 

I think it's more likely they are about to bounce a cheque following the hilarious court case around their logo and wanted to get a childish "it's THEIR fault" style of response first.

I hope Haas don't suffer in the long run and I'm glad to see the back of whatever-the-fuck Rich Energy is actually a front for. 

prowla

boogieman said:

prowla said:

There are some drivers who are following the rules and there are some who think they don't apply to them.

There seems to be some pressure to change the rules, which may be the way forward.

But meanwhile it's not a level playing field.

Verstappen forced Leclerc off the track.

Leclerc should have established himself by not giving way; they would both have been out of this race, but a line would have been set.

As it is, he's just set himself up as easy meat for anybody who wants to put their elbows out.

Great drive by Verstappen though; without him, the race would've just been the normal procession.

(Interesting that both Hamilton and Vettel compromised their races by driving over the kerbs and damaging their cars.) (Plus Fezza stuffed Vettel with the pit stop.)

I don’t think LeClerc “gave way”, rather Max forced him off. I don’t see the point of him deliberately crashing into Max just to prove a point, it’s his job to finish the race in the highest position possible. 

The long game is to make sure that the other driver knows that you will do it, as opposed to knowing you'll jump out of his way like a scared rabbit.

Cols

stickyfiddle said:

TheJudge speculating Rich's twitter has been hacked. 

I think it's more likely they are about to bounce a cheque following the hilarious court case around their logo and wanted to get a childish "it's THEIR fault" style of response first.

I hope Haas don't suffer in the long run and I'm glad to see the back of whatever-the-fuck Rich Energy is actually a front for. 

Not hacked, the CEO of Rich Energy has confirmed to journalists that he’s terminated the arrangement.

However, the ‘investors’ have stepped in and said it’s not terminated, and CEO William Storey was not authorised to do so:

"The deal is not terminated and William has no authority to do so.

"The investors are trying to clear up the PR mess, but it's business as usual."

In the meantime Haas are still running the Rich Energy livery; probably because they don’t want to get accused of breaching the contract.

Honestly, it couldn’t look shadier if it tried...

stickyfiddle

Cols said:

stickyfiddle said:

TheJudge speculating Rich's twitter has been hacked. 

I think it's more likely they are about to bounce a cheque following the hilarious court case around their logo and wanted to get a childish "it's THEIR fault" style of response first.

I hope Haas don't suffer in the long run and I'm glad to see the back of whatever-the-fuck Rich Energy is actually a front for. 

Not hacked, the CEO of Rich Energy has confirmed to journalists that he’s terminated the arrangement.

However, the ‘investors’ have stepped in and said it’s not terminated, and CEO William Storey was not authorised to do so:

"The deal is not terminated and William has no authority to do so.

"The investors are trying to clear up the PR mess, but it's business as usual."

In the meantime Haas are still running the Rich Energy livery; probably because they don’t want to get accused of breaching the contract.

Honestly, it couldn’t look shadier if it tried...

That’s the entire Rich Energy business in a nutshell, it seems!