The F1 thread

stickyfiddle

danishbacon said:

Two wrongs don’t make a right but if penalties are dished out on clear cut rules let’s hope they are given proportionately and fairly. 

The commentary on YouTube videos and in articles from what seems to be a polarised fanbase is new to me. I didn’t realise they felt so passionately about one single driver. In a season like this one, I’m happy that there’s been enough going on in the midfield and throughout to make it all pretty interesting to watch. 

Yeah, the comments on YouTube and most F1 sites are utterly ridiculous. I’m much more an admirer of Lewis than of Max, but all I really want is high quality and fair racing, and for the best guy to win in the end. 

Fwiw I don’t think max should get any penalty if beyond a warning for touching Ham’s car. The only issue is the broken “chain of custody” that makes penalising Lewis more tricky. I think they will still DQ him and Merc will appeal. 

dazzajl

I think Max tripped over his own foot, Merc have shot themselves in theirs. Advantage Red Bull. 

chillidoggy

For me, the technical infringement is absolute.

Max touching the wing is a separate issue, and doing so is dickish behaviour unbecoming of him. Fuck me, even I know you don’t go touching the card post Quali, what the fuck was he thinking?

I predict a Hamster DQ, and a Max reprimand plus a fine. The former potentially robs us of witnessing a decent fight, but rules is rules

stickyfiddle

Here’s an interesting angle…  

https://twitter.com/f1talks/status/1459291893695754246?s=21

TimmyO

chillidoggy said:

For me, the technical infringement is absolute.

Max touching the wing is a separate issue, and doing so is dickish behaviour unbecoming of him. Fuck me, even I know you don’t go touching the card post Quali, what the fuck was he thinking?

I predict a Hamster DQ, and a Max reprimand plus a fine. The former potentially robs us of witnessing a decent fight, but rules is rules

Surely the point here is that absent any interference with the car, the stewards are safe to conclude that their test means that the flap was also opening too far in quali, whereas having been interfered with, it’s not a safe conclusion to draw, effectively negating the result of their test 

stickyfiddle

TimmyO said:

chillidoggy said:

For me, the technical infringement is absolute.

Max touching the wing is a separate issue, and doing so is dickish behaviour unbecoming of him. Fuck me, even I know you don’t go touching the card post Quali, what the fuck was he thinking?

I predict a Hamster DQ, and a Max reprimand plus a fine. The former potentially robs us of witnessing a decent fight, but rules is rules

Surely the point here is that absent any interference with the car, the stewards are safe to conclude that their test means that the flap was also opening too far in quali, whereas having been interfered with, it’s not a safe conclusion to draw, effectively negating the result of their test 

Exactly. If the car had still passed scrutineering then there's no issue. But the stewards can't know for 100% certain that Max isn't the reason it failed unless there is clear footage that shows he didn't touch it. Obviously we all understand it's extremely unlikely but you'd have to be very brave to nuke Hamilton's title fight without 100% certainty. I'm guessing the rules don't cover this explicitly because I don't recall something like this ever happening. 

I actually feel for Max here because if he did touch the car he was almost certainly comparing his own damaged DRS wing to the Merc's to understand how rigid theirs is and exactly how buggered his own wing is (see my tweet posed above and vid below)

Fretwired

chillidoggy said:

For me, the technical infringement is absolute.

Max touching the wing is a separate issue, and doing so is dickish behaviour unbecoming of him. Fuck me, even I know you don’t go touching the card post Quali, what the fuck was he thinking?

I predict a Hamster DQ, and a Max reprimand plus a fine. The former potentially robs us of witnessing a decent fight, but rules is rules

I agree with your assessment - apparently, Alonso has come to Max's defence with a video which 'apparently' shows Max hardly touched the Merc. If that's the case then Max may just get a slap of the wrist and Ham will go to the back of the grid. Will Ham even bother in the sprint? He could take another engine - not as daft as you think .. :-)

chillidoggy

If the stewards genuinely think Max was the cause of the infringement, they’re not fit for purpose.

fretmeister

Max has been fined 50K for touching Merc's wing.

No news on Lewis yet

fretmeister

chillidoggy said:

If the stewards genuinely think Max was the cause of the infringement, they’re not fit for purpose.

Novus actus interveniens.

stickyfiddle

Quoted from the comments on motorsport.com - I assume part of the stewards' verdict on Max. If that's correct then Lewis is fucked.

"Clear, high definition video from the rear facing roll-hoop camera on car 44 shows that there is absolutely no movement of any of the wing elements on car 44 when Verstappen touches the back of the wing and the Stewards are satisfied, from watching all the videos, his body position and the video of the wing, that there was insignificant force when Verstappen touched the wing."

stickyfiddle

Found it on race fans: https://www.racefans.net/2021/11/13/verstappen-fined-e50000-as-stewards-rule-he-did-no-direct-harm-touching-hamiltons-rear-wing/

The stewards heard from the driver of car 33 (Max Verstappen) and team representative.

The stewards also examined a fan video taken from across the track, CCTV video footage taken from pit lane and in car footage from car 14, car 33, car 44 and car 77. In all, these videos gave a clear picture of what occurred in parc fermé following the
qualifying session.

Verstappen exits the car, then moves to the rear of his car. He then takes his gloves off and puts his right hand at the slot-gap of the rear wing of his car. He then moves to car 44 and repeats the exercise, touching the rear wing in two places, once on either side of the DRS actuation device, but on the bottom rear side of the wing, in the area of the slot gap and never near the actuator or the end fixation points.

Clear, high definition video from the rear facing roll-hoop camera on car 44 shows that there is absolutely no movement of any of the wing elements on car 44 when Verstappen touches the back of the wing and the stewards are satisfied, from watching all the videos, his body position and the video of the wing, that there was insignificant force when Verstappen touched the wing.

It is clear to the stewards that it has become a habit of the drivers to touch cars after qualifying and the races. This was also the explanation of Verstappen, that it was simply habit to touch this area of the car which has been a point of speculation in recent races between both teams. This general tendency has been seen as mostly harmless and so has not been uniformly policed. Nevertheless, it is a breach of the parc fermé regulation and has significant potential to cause harm.

Considering the fact that no direct harm was caused in this case, in the opinion of the stewards, and that no earlier precedent of penalties for this exists – on the one hand; but that it is a breach of the regulation and has potential for serious consequences on the other, the stewards determine to take action in this case and order a fine of €50,000. The Stewards further note that it is intended that all teams and drivers take notice that future breaches may incur different penalties from the stewards of those events.

fretmeister

Lewis is deffo fucked then.

stickyfiddle

Yeah, looks like the rear camera on #44 has made it clear enough so it's going to be an interesting weekend for Sir Lewis. Should at least make for an interesting race!

stickyfiddle

My F5 is tired...

stickyfiddle

Finally! Ham DQ

https://www.racefans.net/2021/11/13/official-hamilton-loses-pole-to-verstappen-will-start-sprint-qualifying-last/

I'm guessing it took so long partly because the statement is so detailed...!

The Technical Delegate reported that Car 44 failed the test designed to check the requirements of the last paragraph of Art. 3.6.3 of the 2021 FIA Formula 1 Technical Regulations. The check is described in Technical Directive 011-19. In lay terms, there is a gap between the upper and lower parts of the rear wing. When the DRS is not activated this gap must be between 10mm and 15mm. The car passed this part of the test.

When DRS is activated, which raises the upper element of the wing to a flatter position, the gap must be between 10mm and 85mm. The maximum gap is measured, in accordance with TD/011-19, by pushing an 85mm gauge against the gap with a maximum load of 10N (ten newtons.) If the gauge goes through then the car has failed the test. In this case, the gauge would not pass through at the inner section of the wing, but did at the outer section of the wing. This test was repeated four times with two different gauges, once being done in the presence of the Stewards and representatives of the Competitor.

The Stewards held a hearing on Friday following qualifying with Ron Meadows, the Competitor representative, and Simon Cole, the Chief Engineer, Trackside and from the FIA Jo Bauer, Technical Delegate and Nicholas Tombazis, Single Seater Technical Director. The Stewards then adjourned the hearing to gather more evidence and at 10:30am on Saturday morning held a further hearing that also
included John Owen, Chief Designer for the Competitor, who testified by video conference, but did not include Joe Bauer. 

The Competitor asserted that the design is intended to meet the regulations. It was clear to the Stewards that the additional deflection was due to additional play either in the DRS actuator or the pivots at the end, or some combination or other fault with the mechanism, or incorrect assembly of the parts. The Stewards heard, from both the team and the FIA that the same design has been tested many times during the season and uniformly passed. Further, the FIA has examined the design of the area of the car in question and are satisfied that the design meets the intent of the regulation. There is therefore no question in the minds of the Stewards that the test failure indicates any intent to exceed the maximum dimension either by action or
design.

The Competitor also noted, that Art 3.6.3 of the regulation states a maximum dimension, which is possible to measure without applying a force or load. It is not until a force is applied, that the gauge is able to go  through. There was no disagreement that the test itself was undertaken as described in TD/011-19. The gauges were measured and the Stewards were satisfied that they were the correct dimension. The Competitor therefore argues that their car complied with the regulation in the static position and thus meets the regulation. The FIA argues that while not regulatory, the TD, like many others, describes the procedure for the test so that competitors may design cars to meet the regulations. Further, the TD states that the test is designed “to make sure that the rear wing element does not deflect to a larger opening than the permitted value…”. The Stewards take the position that while a TD is not in itself a regulation, TDs are accepted as the method upon which the teams may rely and in this case, the test that was carried out was in conformity with the TD and its legitimate aims.

The Competitor alleged that the fact that the car passed the test in the center section of the wing is both a mitigating factor and shows that there was no intent to breach the regulation. While the Stewards accept that the latter point may be true, the Stewards believe that which sections failed is not relevant to the fact that the wing did fail the test.

The Competitor noted that this is not a systemic breach, and is indeed unique. It was, rather, something gone wrong. The Competitor further noted that they would have liked to have had the opportunity to inspect the parts with a view to having some explanation for the Stewards as to how the problem arose. However, the Stewards fundamentally accept the Competitor’s explanation that the cause of the failed test was something “gone wrong” rather than a deliberate action. The Stewards therefore chose to keep the assembly under seal and preserve the evidence of the failure, rather than altering the parts in an inspection which would have involved some handling of the parts and thus some alteration of the evidence.

The final point of the Competitor regarding the assembly itself is that it is regular practice for the FIA Technical Department to allow teams to fix minor problems that they find with their cars, even during the Parc Fermé conditions of qualifying. Had the Competitor recognized this problem during qualifying they surely would have sought, and the FIA Technical Department confirmed, they would have received permission to
fix the parts or tighten bolts if needed.

The Stewards were sympathetic to this argument and analyzed whether they felt this was a mitigating circumstance. It is often a mitigating circumstance to make allowances for crash damage. However, the Stewards could not extend this argument to cover parts that were found out of conformity in post session checks with no obvious reason in evidence other than considering normal running at this Event. In the end, the regulations are clear and at the moment of the conformity check, the car did not comply.

At the end of the first hearing on Friday, amateur video emerged of driver Max Verstappen touching car 44 in Parc Fermé. The Stewards took the time to gather all the available video footage of this incident and finally reviewed in car footage from car 14, car 77, car 33 and car 44 as well as CCTV footage from the FIA’s pit lane cameras, in addition to the amateur footage. The Stewards held a separate hearing in relation to this incident and incorporate the text of that decision herein. However, in summary the Competitor of car 44 also agreed that it was unlikely that Verstappen’s actions caused the fault, however they felt that it was an open question. The Stewards, however, were fully satisfied, having extensively reviewed the totality of the evidence regarding that incident, that it has no bearing on this case. Finally, therefore, the Stewards decide that car 44 failed the test indicated in TD/011-19 and is therefore in breach of Art 3.6.3 of the FIA Formula 1 Technical Regulations.

The Stewards agree with the Competitor that this is something gone wrong, rather than an intentional act or design but did not find there to be mitigating circumstances. Further, Art 1.3.3 of the International Sporting Code states that “it shall be no defence to claim that no performance advantage was obtained”. Therefore, the Stewards order the usual penalty for technical non-compliance of Disqualification from the qualifying session.

TimmyO

chillidoggy said:

If the stewards genuinely think Max was the cause of the infringement, they’re not fit for purpose.

This is a silly statement - as it turns out there was better video available to confirm that Max’s interference couldn’t have caused any issue. Without that, it would not have been possible to conclude that. 

TimmyO

Blimey - they’ve earned their fee this weekend. Lots of moving parts (no pun intended) there 

stickyfiddle

The good news seems to be they have really seriously taken every reasonable angled argument into consideration so they clearly aren't giving HAM penalty without proper consideration. 

I hope this doesn't rob us from a down-to-the-wire title fight, but it seems to be the right call

sweepy

I really do detest this “ Sprint Race” farce, we have 6 of them next year ! thanks  for ruining the sport Liberty