The F1 thread

Emiel

stickyfiddle said:

Ironically despite his Senna fandom, Lewis drives far more like Prost than Ayrton. He didn't in the earlier years but like most elder statesmen has learned that maximising points every time if the way to win titles. 

Who remembers the 2011 season where Hamilton and Massa came together no less than 5 times? I guess having a dominant car helps to say out of (most) trouble 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m481ED70_No

Fretwired

Remember this .. it sounds better in Spanish .. Massa and Alonso bust-up .. :-)

Dodge

stickyfiddle said:

Ironically despite his Senna fandom, Lewis drives far more like Prost than Ayrton. He didn't in the earlier years but like most elder statesmen has learned that maximising points every time if the way to win titles. 

And Max is simiar to Senna.  As Brundle once said, Senna would put his car in a position where you had to yield or there would be an accident.  Everyone knew Senna wouldn't back out, and Max doesn't either.

Oddly I liked Senna - I think despite him crossing the line on numerous occasions, I think he did an awful lot of good for F1 and for the most part, he conducted himself well outside of the car.  Max, on the other hand is a obnoxious little prick.

Emiel said:

stickyfiddle said:

Ironically despite his Senna fandom, Lewis drives far more like Prost than Ayrton. He didn't in the earlier years but like most elder statesmen has learned that maximising points every time if the way to win titles. 

Who remembers the 2011 season where Hamilton and Massa came together no less than 5 times? I guess having a dominant car helps to say out of (most) trouble 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m481ED70_No

I do.  Probably his worst year, and outscored by Button.

I really don't get this "Lewis is only winning due to his dominant car" hate though.  It's mostly the norm that the drivers champion is driving the constructors championship winning car.

Exceptions from the last 40 years:

Hamilton in 2008 (Ferrari)

Hakkinen in 1999 (Ferrari)

Schumacher in 1994 (Williams)

Prost in 1986 (Williams)

Piquet in 1983 (Ferrari)

Rosberg in 1982 (Ferrari)

Piquet in 1981 (Williams)

According to f1stats.com, Hamilton has had 8 retirements due to "collisions" in his 14 years in F1. Max has had 8 in 6 years.

goldtop

Well, the voice of reason has spoken. LH is bullying MV and not playing fair.

https://news.yahoo.com/lewis-hamilton-bullying-max-verstappen-131201809.html

Simonh

That settles it then.

Max is deffo to blame!

Emiel

I'd add Alonso in 2005 to that list... McLaren had properly the fastest car that year but it proved too unreliable. 

Senna was amazing inside and outside F1 but I never liked his ruthlessness, especially in an age where an accident could be lethal. For me, him driving into Prost at high speed in Suzuka 1990 can't be justified, no matter what happened prior to it. I find it fascinating when Schumacher joined the grid in 1991, you can tell Senna knew this wasn't simply another driver. Of course they clashed. In many ways they were very alike, Max too. I honestly think many Brits don't like him because of the way the Dutch are, which is very outspoken and direct. Although the last couple of races he did break the rules several times. I just hope next years Red Bull won't be a dog and we get to see more exciting racing, and let Ferrari be in the game too.

Simonh

The irony of it is I think many people want to see max race hard against Lewis - and tbh beat him. They just want to see it done fair and on the track.

Boromedic

No, we don't like Max because he is a c**t, it's not difficult, it's got nothing to do with being outspoken and direct or indeed being from the Netherlands. Senna and Schumacher had some admirable traits alongside ruthlessness, Max is a liar and a dirty/dangerous driver to boot. It's not a pleasant combination at all, the whole grid will get involved in a bit of gamesmanship, Max is a level beyond even Senna at the moment, and to top it off he lies about it. Senna's justification for it at least wasn't a lie, and the fact that every other driver said that after Brazil they no longer knew where they stood yet Max did, shows that too. 

melod

Max (and perhaps other young drivers) bring a new approach to racing that I can’t say I like.

They like to constantly test the limits of the rules until they get slapped. Of course most will say this is not new but I think he does it way more aggressively, some might say cleverly.

It reminds me the way a video gamer would figure out what behaviours a game would punish although they might look weird/wrong. 

I found very interesting how he highlighted that he shouldn’t have taken a penalty because , like Brazil, both drivers didn’t make the corner. So as long as both drivers Miss the apex (though for different reasons) there is not blame to be attributed.

Equally, Hamilton was clever to try and go the long way around that corner as of saying “look, he is cutting the corner and I am not!”

Much of all of this stems from the run off areas in modern circuits.

I say bring on gravel traps in some way and let people use them if they think it works…

Boromedic

P.s. The dominant car thing, Lewis has won a race in every season he's competed in, some of them seasons in firmly midfield cars. That's one of the things that marks him out among the crowd. Also with regards the dominant car thing, it wasn't just 2008, his title win in 2018 was against the backdrop of irregularities with Ferrari's engines which made them the best car for nearly two thirds of the season, so he won the title in the second fastest car technically. 

simonk

goldtop said:

Well, the voice of reason has spoken. LH is bullying MV and not playing fair.

https://news.yahoo.com/lewis-hamilton-bullying-max-verstappen-131201809.html

It staggers me that people are still phoning Bernie to ask what he thinks about stuff

If I were in charge I’d give Bernie and Eddie Jordan a phone each that only had the others number in. They could only talk cobblers to each other then.

goldtop

Seeing Hamilton arrive in F1 was like seeing Rossi arrive on a 500cc GP bike. Jaw-dropping.

Maybe LH-vs-MV is like VR-vs-MM - younger guys come along, and need to use aggression to beat the racecraft of the older driver?

sinbaadi

Max would take the championship being awarded to him on a technicality in a heart beat.  He'd celebrate the disqualification of the entire field and cancellation of the final race if it meant he is the champion.

Max does not want to play the game,  he just wants to win it.  It's completely joyless, he has no interest in any race being a good race, no love for it at all, it's a chore for him and if you're a fan of Max you're a results-fan, not a motor-racing fan. 

It's a bit like the football fans that can't even watch their teams play.

DesVegas

Sinbaadi, I agree about him wanting to win at any cost but saying he is joyless is a bit too far.

simonk

sinbaadi said:

Max would take the championship being awarded to him on a technicality in a heart beat.  He'd celebrate the disqualification of the entire field and cancellation of the final race if it meant he is the champion.

Max does not want to play the game,  he just wants to win it.  It's completely joyless, he has no interest in any race being a good race, no love for it at all, it's a chore for him and if you're a fan of Max you're a results-fan, not a motor-racing fan. 

It's a bit like the football fans that can't even watch their teams play.

That’s pretty wide of the mark in my view. He’s a supreme talent without doubt with some stellar drives under his belt. He generally speaks well and I enjoy his impish exchanges with his engineer. I think him and Lewis have raised the bar well above the rest of the field this year. As the year goes on though Max has looked increasingly desperate  - and fair enough I suppose, he’s fighting for a championship with a seven time champ who really has little else to prove.
Matters would probably be improved if he was properly punished for his increasingly suspect driving.

TimmyO

simonk said:

goldtop said:

Well, the voice of reason has spoken. LH is bullying MV and not playing fair.

https://news.yahoo.com/lewis-hamilton-bullying-max-verstappen-131201809.html

It staggers me that people are still phoning Bernie to ask what he thinks about stuff

If I were in charge I’d give Bernie and Eddie Jordan a phone each that only had the others number in. They could only talk cobblers to each other then.

Love this ^

sinbaadi

Max has no interest in having a race with Lewis.  If that's not a killjoy attitude then I don't know what is.

Cols

TimmyO said:

Here’s one I’d be interested in folks views on:

Who are the multiple-world-champions who you CAN’T point to multiple instances of things that suggest they lack (or at that time lacked) integrity. 

Obviously Senna, Prost, Schumacher are out. Hell, even good-guy-Seb is out. 

Who else is out?

Who does it leave? 

Multiple WCs with integrity; Hakkinen, Lauda, Fittipaldi, Hill, Clark, Fangio.

Hamilton and Alonso are clean in wheel to wheel combat, but blotted their copybooks in other ways; screwing teammates over (including each other, but Hamilton was particularly fond of forcing Rosberg off track), playing the victim game, and so forth.  I’m sure Alonso knew about the plan for Piquet Jr to stuff it in the wall at Singapore as well.

NickL

Cols said:

TimmyO said:

Here’s one I’d be interested in folks views on:

Who are the multiple-world-champions who you CAN’T point to multiple instances of things that suggest they lack (or at that time lacked) integrity. 

Obviously Senna, Prost, Schumacher are out. Hell, even good-guy-Seb is out. 

Who else is out?

Who does it leave? 

Multiple WCs with integrity; Hakkinen, Lauda, Fittipaldi, Hill, Clark, Fangio.

Hamilton and Alonso are clean in wheel to wheel combat, but blotted their copybooks in other ways; screwing teammates over (including each other, but Hamilton was particularly fond of forcing Rosberg off track), playing the victim game, and so forth.  I’m sure Alonso knew about the plan for Piquet Jr to stuff it in the wall at Singapore as well.

Given his influential campaigning for driver safety when it wasn't popular, you can probably add Jackie Stewart to the 'integrity' list.

Not aware of Jack Brabham having any particular reputation for dodgy tactics either, and he effectively handed the '67 title to his team mate Hulme because as team owner he tested less reliable new parts on his own car first.

GoldenEraGuitars

Fair play C4, that couldn’t have been cheap.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59588805