The F1 thread

Boromedic

Let's be honest the FIA isn't going to strip Max of the WDC, and to be fair he just maximised his opportunity and it's not down to him that the team broke the rules. Putting aside the tactics he used to win it, I think the following is probably as strong as it needs to be to deter others from doing the same. 

Cheating is cheating, I don't care if you overspent by £1 or £90,000,000, if you win by breaking the rules then you should be punished the same. Therefore the previous equivalent cheating/breaking the rules punishments we've seen (aside from Ferrari under the international assistance plan), usually involves exclusion from the championship a la McLaren in 07. So Red Bull as a team should be excluded from the championship last year, and stripped of all prizes and financial gain from coming second in the constructors. Also all prize monies from last season for Sergio and Max should be forfeited, along with any financial or material gain RB have made due to winning the Drivers Championship. (Let's face it, the breach overspend increased the lap time the drivers used to perform so well) Then reduce their budget for next season by the amount of the overspend, and deduct them points this season (which won't matter as they are streets ahead).

You can already see that RB have developed their excuse in the BBC article, Horner states that as far as they are concerned they are under the budget following "relevant costs". That's the term they will use to argue certain items that they feel aren't relevant to the cap. Sorry Karen you are a liar and a cheat, having been found out before the announcement you doubled down and lied some more.

Let's see if the FIA have grown some bollox, otherwise everyone will do the same going forward and what is the point.... I never liked Red Bull and I don't like cheaters either.

boogieman

Meh, none of that ^ will happen. Red Bull will get fined, they’ll pay up, say they’ve misinterpreted the expenditure rules and/or forgot to declare a few things and then carry on like nothing ever happened.  

fretmeister

Boromedic

https://twitter.com/roadrunner_f1/status/1579411244448378881

Guess cheaters do prosper then....

Boromedic

boogieman said:

Meh, none of that ^ will happen. Red Bull will get fined, they’ll pay up, say they’ve misinterpreted the expenditure rules and/or forgot to declare a few things and then carry on like nothing ever happened.  

Of course it won't, doesn't mean it shouldn't same as the drivers championship last year. 

Shame RBIA doesn't roll off the tongue as well as FIA.

I mean it's one thing to find a way to build the car and interpret the regs in a clever way a la Brawn or RB even. It's another to cheat the cost cap and gain an advantage because at the end of the day, that's not being clever it's cheating full stop, just like McLaren in 07.

The other thing is, that it cheapens their achievements this season and casts doubt over them. They've designed and built a car that is class of the field, Max has driven beautifully and all of that now looks even more tainted than last season's shenanigans previously did. 

stickyfiddle

https://twitter.com/strawchewer_/status/1579492094686945280

euan

I like the rumour that Christian Horner was the one who leaked the major Red Bull breach story just so that then it comes out it’s just a “minor” one I doesn’t look so bad. 

He gets a story about how leaky the FIA is and an avenue to make Red Bull look like a victim. 

People seem to be saying that the FIA are the ones who are saying Red Bull went over, but it was the auditors. The same one who did the other teams. There is very little wiggle room given financial auditing is taken seriously. 

goldtop

Todt will be back-pedalling from that comment.

Cols

Boromedic said:

https://twitter.com/roadrunner_f1/status/1579411244448378881

Guess cheaters do prosper then....

Soon to be replaced by:

Boromedic

You know it!

euan

Isn’t the key to what Brawn said, “fraudulently”? From what I understand Red Bull aren’t trying to hide that they overspent, just that it doesn’t count. 

fretmeister

I like Brundle's idea. That the team boss and CFO become personally responsible for breaches.

I'd also introduce a clear Strict Liability provision. Intent then wouldn't matter. Breach = penalty. 

Just like a road traffic offence. Intent doesn't come into it.

stickyfiddle

Yeah, I don't like any questions of intent - obviously all teams generally intend to stay under the cap. Point is if your competitor manages it and you don't then you had an advantage. 

Tiff suggested weight penalties... I don't hate it though I prefer my massive fine that's divvied up between the other teams and added to their own caps.

That said, give them an extra 10kg for 2 years and see how much they like spending too much...

Cols

euan said:

Isn’t the key to what Brawn said, “fraudulently”? From what I understand Red Bull aren’t trying to hide that they overspent, just that it doesn’t count. 

They overspent.  Same as things like the gap between wing elements, minimum amount of fuel available for sampling, maximum width and height of car... I could go on, but infringement of any and all of the above has resulted in disqualification regardless of whether or not it was intended.  Neither do the authorities look at whether an advantage was gained, simply that there was a rule and that it was not followed.

In their statement Red Bull claim "“Our 2021 submission was below the cost cap limit, so we need to carefully review the FIA’s findings as our belief remains that the relevant costs are under the 2021 cost cap amount".

If one wanted to play at Amateur Lawyer it could be argued that if Red Bull submitted figures claiming that they were within the limit, and the FIA's subsequent investigations found that they had, in fact, overspent.  That in itself could amount to a fraudulent submission.

In any case, Max obviously isn't going to lose his World Championship; too much facilitation already went into ensuring he got it last year for it to be yanked away a year later by a proven overspend.  And I don't believe Red Bull will be disqualified from the 2021 constructors championship or points deducted to a degree which affects their final standing.   

chillidoggy

I’m intrigued as to how the alleged overspend came to light.

stickyfiddle

chillidoggy said:

I’m intrigued as to how the alleged overspend came to light.

Deloitte audited every submission. They will have checked and re-checked!

fretmeister

stickyfiddle said:

Yeah, I don't like any questions of intent - obviously all teams generally intend to stay under the cap. Point is if your competitor manages it and you don't then you had an advantage. 

Tiff suggested weight penalties... I don't hate it though I prefer my massive fine that's divvied up between the other teams and added to their own caps.

That said, give them an extra 10kg for 2 years and see how much they like spending too much...

I like the idea that a big fine gets added to all the other teams budget. That would really help at the bottom end too.

The weight penalty should be adding ballast equivalent to the weight of the heaviest person on the team. 

Sorry Max - but your car now has to weigh 125kg more because of the Chef.

Boromedic

chillidoggy said:

I’m intrigued as to how the alleged overspend came to light.

Can't believe your beloved Christian cheated eh? Bet this is your fave fap pic innit?

Cols

chillidoggy said:

I’m intrigued as to how the alleged overspend came to light.

There are certain things which are out of scope for the cost cap. 



The most straightforward explanation is that each team has to submit its full accounts, indicate which elements are not in scope and make a self-declaration of compliance based in a summation of all of the in-scope costs.

Evidently the FIA has identified some substantial expenditure which Red Bull had marked down as out of scope, but wasn't.

euan

Yes. Which isn’t breaching the cost cap by fraudulent means. Saying we spent £200m in total, here are all the things believe are exempt from the cost cap, thus we are below the cap” isn’t trying to behave fraudulently. 

If they had submitted accounts without the cost of an offsite production facility, then that would be fraudulently submitting. 

I feel dirty getting that close to defending Red Bull, but the out of context use of what Brawn said isn’t going to help the situation and likely just plays into Horner’s victim complex