The F1 thread

stickyfiddle

euan said:

Yes. Which isn’t breaching the cost cap by fraudulent means. Saying we spent £200m in total, here are all the things believe are exempt from the cost cap, thus we are below the cap” isn’t trying to behave fraudulently. 

If they had submitted accounts without the cost of an offsite production facility, then that would be fraudulently submitting. 

I feel dirty getting that close to defending Red Bull, but the out of context use of what Brawn said isn’t going to help the situation and likely just plays into Horner’s victim complex 

I’d argue categorising something as out of scope when the regs say it should be in scope is just as bad as saying you spent 10 when your actually spent 50. 

Obviously we don’t yet have the details of what any such items were  

goldtop

Remember, Rich Energy's F1-dalliance? Well, that f*****r is still stirring:

https://twitter.com/rich_energy/status/1579547959225888769

euan

AMuS reporting that its over Red Bull considering Newey as one of their top three employee, and Delottie/FIA saying he is a contractor not an employee.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/fia-budget-deckel-buchpruefung-red-bull-fragen-antworten/

Cols

euan said:

AMuS reporting that its over Red Bull considering Newey as one of their top three employee, and Delottie/FIA saying he is a contractor not an employee.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/fia-budget-deckel-buchpruefung-red-bull-fragen-antworten/

Might be technically correct.  As far as I know Adrian Newey is officially employed not by Red Bull Racing but by Red Bull Advanced Technologies.  

The origins of this lie in the acquisition of Toro Rosso (now AlphaTauri) in 2006; setting up a third company to do research and design for both Red Bull and Toro Rosso allowed for a high level of… erm… design overlap.  

Funny how clever dodges can come back to bite you on the arse.

stickyfiddle

Yeah, as a high-paid guy it's also better for Newey to be paid through a company, then take a small salary plus dividends (and probably the same to his wife as shareholder and director) and potentially even spend money via loans secured against the value of his shares in the company, which would retain a bunch of the cash for slow withdrawal through retirement. 

fretmeister

The Newey thing is just like Saracens attempts to get round the rugby salary cap.

£700,000 large for Mr Farrell, but here's a £3m house to live in as well...

euan

Or the EBTs for all those football players

TimmyO

That’s some very clumsy accounting. Embarrassing as much as anything. 

It’ll be a minor penalty, nothing material 

boogieman

Boromedic said:

boogieman said:

Meh, none of that ^ will happen. Red Bull will get fined, they’ll pay up, say they’ve misinterpreted the expenditure rules and/or forgot to declare a few things and then carry on like nothing ever happened.  

Of course it won't, doesn't mean it shouldn't same as the drivers championship last year. 

Shame RBIA doesn't roll off the tongue as well as FIA.

I mean it's one thing to find a way to build the car and interpret the regs in a clever way a la Brawn or RB even. It's another to cheat the cost cap and gain an advantage because at the end of the day, that's not being clever it's cheating full stop, just like McLaren in 07.

The other thing is, that it cheapens their achievements this season and casts doubt over them. They've designed and built a car that is class of the field, Max has driven beautifully and all of that now looks even more tainted than last season's shenanigans previously did. 

I don’t disagree, and I hate cheats in any sport too. Just saying what the most likely outcome will be. 

Boromedic

boogieman said:

Boromedic said:

boogieman said:

Meh, none of that ^ will happen. Red Bull will get fined, they’ll pay up, say they’ve misinterpreted the expenditure rules and/or forgot to declare a few things and then carry on like nothing ever happened.  

Of course it won't, doesn't mean it shouldn't same as the drivers championship last year. 

Shame RBIA doesn't roll off the tongue as well as FIA.

I mean it's one thing to find a way to build the car and interpret the regs in a clever way a la Brawn or RB even. It's another to cheat the cost cap and gain an advantage because at the end of the day, that's not being clever it's cheating full stop, just like McLaren in 07.

The other thing is, that it cheapens their achievements this season and casts doubt over them. They've designed and built a car that is class of the field, Max has driven beautifully and all of that now looks even more tainted than last season's shenanigans previously did. 

I don’t disagree, and I hate cheats in any sport too. Just saying what the most likely outcome will be. 

Oh ayeee, ain't that the truth

fretmeister

TimmyO said:

That’s some very clumsy accounting. Embarrassing as much as anything. 

It’ll be a minor penalty, nothing material 

Mmmm.

Or maybe not...


https://www.planetf1.com/news/christian-horner-2020-comments-cost-cap-resurface/

TimmyO

fretmeister said:

TimmyO said:

That’s some very clumsy accounting. Embarrassing as much as anything. 

It’ll be a minor penalty, nothing material 

Mmmm.

Or maybe not...


https://www.planetf1.com/news/christian-horner-2020-comments-cost-cap-resurface/

meh. You're the lawyer - does that constitute proof of anything that actually then happened? 

fretmeister

TimmyO said:

fretmeister said:

TimmyO said:

That’s some very clumsy accounting. Embarrassing as much as anything. 

It’ll be a minor penalty, nothing material 

Mmmm.

Or maybe not...


https://www.planetf1.com/news/christian-horner-2020-comments-cost-cap-resurface/

meh. You're the lawyer - does that constitute proof of anything that actually then happened? 

No. But it is the sort of thing that could cause a deeper investigation.

Proof is the end of a process, not the beginning.

Cols

fretmeister said:

TimmyO said:

That’s some very clumsy accounting. Embarrassing as much as anything. 

It’ll be a minor penalty, nothing material 

Mmmm.

Or maybe not...


https://www.planetf1.com/news/christian-horner-2020-comments-cost-cap-resurface/

“F1 teams will always spend whatever budget they have available to them. Plus an extra 10 percent.” - C. Horner, 2020

Oops.

goldtop

fretmeister said:

TimmyO said:

fretmeister said:

TimmyO said:

That’s some very clumsy accounting. Embarrassing as much as anything. 

It’ll be a minor penalty, nothing material 

Mmmm.

Or maybe not...


https://www.planetf1.com/news/christian-horner-2020-comments-cost-cap-resurface/

meh. You're the lawyer - does that constitute proof of anything that actually then happened? 

No. But it is the sort of thing that could cause a deeper investigation.

Proof is the end of a process, not the beginning.

My feeling: Mo@FIA doesn't want a deeper investigation.

This is not Mosley wanting to screw Ron Dennis with McLaren's $100 million fine: “$5 million for the offence and $95 million for Ron being a twat”.

fretmeister

I doubt they want that either. They have a massive PR problem as it is.
After the last race last year whatever they do will either be viewed as too lenient or too harsh. I suspect hardly anyone will think "the penalty is fair".

But that's partly a problem in the regs - they allow too much argument. They are actually worse than Sentencing Guidelines! 5% might seem insignificant - but when the total is 145 million, it's still a huge sum.

Then if, as reported, Newey is paid from elsewhere so they can have another senior member outside of the cap - why wasn't that type of thing addressed in the rules? That isn't some novel / unique idea - that's quite common practice in all manner of accountancy.

The FIA should have ordered the teams to lodge the max budget amount with the FIA, and then EVERYTHING comes out of the account with receipts. All other spending is thus assumed a breach. I get the drivers and top 3 being outside the cap, but there's about another 2 dozen things outside as well. Creative accountancy options have been built into the rules, and they didn't have to be.

The cap rules are about as complex as the rules on wing design! At this rate there will have to be a championship between the team accountants too.

Horner's comments will be viewed as either just an example of all teams pushing the edges as far as they can go, or will be viewed as confirmation of intent.

Redbull have never cared about public perception in that way, and possibly not at all while they are winning.

Merc and Ferrari fans will be increasingly vocal about it, and RB fans will enjoy Horner's "don't give a fuck" response.

It's theatre - and it really shouldn't be.

chillidoggy

Boromedic said:

chillidoggy said:

I’m intrigued as to how the alleged overspend came to light.

Can't believe your beloved Christian cheated eh? Bet this is your fave fap pic innit?

Rest assured, I have no Christian Horner posters on my wall, or anywhere else! Geri, on the other hand………

TimmyO

I just think they'll prefer to keep to a perfunctory punishment in this the first year, and at the same time work to clarify how things will be treated and responded to in future. I dislike Horner (or at least the persona we see) but I really don't want this to turn into a sideshow that is better for the gossip sites than for the sport. 

Nitefly

Zak Brown putting the boot in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63256734

stickyfiddle

Nitefly said:

Zak Brown putting the boot in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/63256734

I mean.. he's not wrong!