The F1 thread

musicegbdf

Fining is a waste of time   they could just add to the budget.
For first offence double the breach amount deducted for the next year's budget. So if 200k over not that bad 7 m over with a 14 m deduction would be painful. Do it the next year and will be triple , etc ..
As much as I dislike Max and last year was a disgrace , it is done and even if they hit the points it should not be against the driver. That won't happen anyway. 

boogieman

musicegbdf said:

Fining is a waste of time   they could just add to the budget.
For first offence double the breach amount deducted for the next year's budget. So if 200k over not that bad 7 m over with a 14 m deduction would be painful. Do it the next year and will be triple , etc ..
As much as I dislike Max and last year was a disgrace , it is done and even if they hit the points it should not be against the driver. That won't happen anyway. 

Agreed. Any fine needs to hurt the team enough to make them toe the line properly in the future. Either knock the amount off next season’s budget or redistribute it to the other teams. 

I’m not a Max fan particularly but last seasons results are done and dusted… I doubt Lewis would want to inherit an already tainted 2021 WDC anyway. Let it stand. 

fretmeister

boogieman said:

musicegbdf said:

Fining is a waste of time   they could just add to the budget.
For first offence double the breach amount deducted for the next year's budget. So if 200k over not that bad 7 m over with a 14 m deduction would be painful. Do it the next year and will be triple , etc ..
As much as I dislike Max and last year was a disgrace , it is done and even if they hit the points it should not be against the driver. That won't happen anyway. 

Agreed. Any fine needs to hurt the team enough to make them toe the line properly in the future. Either knock the amount off next season’s budget or redistribute it to the other teams. 

I’m not a Max fan particularly but last seasons results are done and dusted… I doubt Lewis would want to inherit an already tainted 2021 WDC anyway. Let it stand. 

Could just vacate the title that year.

That would be better from a history point of view. For all time there would be "N/A" in the slot. Redbull / MV disqualified.
If there was another name in the slot nobody would remember or give a crap in another 25 years.

Boromedic

fretmeister said:

boogieman said:

musicegbdf said:

Fining is a waste of time   they could just add to the budget.
For first offence double the breach amount deducted for the next year's budget. So if 200k over not that bad 7 m over with a 14 m deduction would be painful. Do it the next year and will be triple , etc ..
As much as I dislike Max and last year was a disgrace , it is done and even if they hit the points it should not be against the driver. That won't happen anyway. 

Agreed. Any fine needs to hurt the team enough to make them toe the line properly in the future. Either knock the amount off next season’s budget or redistribute it to the other teams. 

I’m not a Max fan particularly but last seasons results are done and dusted… I doubt Lewis would want to inherit an already tainted 2021 WDC anyway. Let it stand. 

Could just vacate the title that year.

That would be better from a history point of view. For all time there would be "N/A" in the slot. Redbull / MV disqualified.
If there was another name in the slot nobody would remember or give a crap in another 25 years.

This is my thoughts too, cheated then you get disqualified. Couldn't be a bigger incentive to play by the rules.

fretmeister

Maybe 5% breach = 5% points deduction from Team and Driver.

Cols

Have the FIA indicated by when they might come to a decision?

fretmeister

Cols said:

Have the FIA indicated by when they might come to a decision?

Not that I can see.

Bernie's putting the boot in now too!  

It's a complete farce.

euan

I think the FIA is awaiting to see if RBR appeal. If they do appeal it opens them up to stricter penalties than the FIA might have chosen to administer. 

There something relatively subtle in what Brown says in the letter. He mentions the trial run in 2020, so that teams could make sure their structure and processes were compliant with the cost cap rules. And that the rules were written collaboratively with the teams. The rules also state that it’s on the team to contact the FIA and make sure their understanding of the rules are correct. 

If Red Bull changed anything about how they recorded expenditure and excluded costs without consulting with the FIA, then I can’t see how they have any wiggle room to appeal. The appeal panel might even take on the opinion that this was deliberate. 

Having read the rules a fair bit over the weekend, I’m thinking that it’s a simple overspend. Probably due to poor asset management during a fierce development battle. Everything about sick pay, food and Adrian Newey is just rumour spread to discredit the work of the auditors. 

Fun fact. One of the excluded costs in the cap, fines for breaching the cost cap. 

sinbaadi

In my opinion it's highly unlikely that anything could change the result of 2021 season.  It would be fitting for a farcical ruling to protect a farcical result.

On one hand I just don't see how anything less than that doesn't simply open the door for Mercedes and Ferrari to blow the budget every season and take the financial penalties.  Even if they were cumulative, there are no physical barriers to spending, only fines if you spend too much, so go for it boys!  

On the other... ... This is Formula One.  This is the FIA.  This is protective, insular, an establishment.  The kind of people that would cover things up if they could "look bad" for one of the cronies.  Experts at maintaining the status quo and not making waves.

RBR will get a meaningless fine and everyone will be expected to just move on and play by the rules whilst the rules and penalty systems are "clarified".

Also, I wonder what RBR would be saying if Mercedes had outspent them, by the amount that they have breached the cap, and Lewis had won the WDC.

TimmyO

We’ve stumbled into a silly situation where you can leave a race not certain of who has won, get out of the car not knowing you’re world champion, and be half way through the next season not certain of who won last year. 

To non-fans it must seem farcical. Which it kind of is. 

TimmyO

Maybe eventually we’ll skip all the messy car stuff and be reduced to competitive contracts and spreadsheets 

Cols

The FIA have certainly done themselves no favours here by taking 10 months from the season finale to actually complete their checks.  

euan

TBF it’s not the FIA doing the auditing and it’s going to relatively complex as it about yearly attributed spend. Things like a part made in 2022 isn’t counted if it’s not used. Parts manufactured in 2022 for the 2023 car are counted toward the 2023 budget. For ten teams it’s going to take a while ensuring consistency. 

Cols

euan said:

TBF it’s not the FIA doing the auditing and it’s going to relatively complex as it about yearly attributed spend. Things like a part made in 2022 isn’t counted if it’s not used. Parts manufactured in 2022 for the 2023 car are counted toward the 2023 budget. For ten teams it’s going to take a while ensuring consistency. 

That's a very specific one; the cost of inventory unused in the reporting year is excluded.  So if you've made a bunch of spare parts for your 2022 car but then don't need them because the drivers have been well behaved, they don't count.  Neither do parts for your 2023 car which you've manufactured ahead of time. 

However, if you have 200 engineers working through 2022 to prepare the 2023 car, their salaries are included.  

Which does raise an interesting question about how - if at all - development expenditure of an incoming team is controlled.  Say Porsche decide to enter their own team, what's to stop them from spending $1 billion the year before entry and blowing everyone away at the first race?

euan

There is a specific rule that says a new entrant has to abide by the cost cap rules the full year before they are licensed to compete. 

To the further my answer about why it took so long. The deadline for submitting last years cost cap report to the FIA was March 31st. 

However every team had to submit and interim report up to the end of April by June the 30th. Same last year. Welllllllllllllll that’s interesting. 

Emiel

TimmyO said:

We’ve stumbled into a silly situation where you can leave a race not certain of who has won, get out of the car not knowing you’re world champion, and be half way through the next season not certain of who won last year. 

To non-fans it must seem farcical. Which it kind of is. 

It is even to lifelong fans. I've been watching F1 since 25 years and rarely it's been such a mess. Not only does all this uncertainty confuse both drivers, teams and fans, but it fuels the ever-going (crazy) speculation on social media too. It would be nice if the FIA finally aknowledges its a governing body and actually put some real effort in making clear rules and act when the rules are violated. Now they seem to be constantly one step behind the teams, which make it look like the teams are actually in control of the sport, and not the FIA.

chillidoggy

Ironically, all the controversy is what keeps people interested in the sport.

goldtop

^ Well. 1% of the audience, perhaps.

The rest of the TV watchers shrug their shoulders and just wait fo the next race, hoping to find some excitement then.

Cols

Red Bull have apparently been offered a deal by the FIA to admit guilt in exchange for a certain (unspecified) punishment.  The potential punishments do not include the loss of 2021 Constructors’ or Drivers’ championship points or a further reduction in the cost cap

RiftAmps

Cols said:

Red Bull have apparently been offered a deal by the FIA to admit guilt in exchange for a certain (unspecified) punishment.  The potential punishments do not include the loss of 2021 Constructors’ or Drivers’ championship points or a further reduction in the cost cap

That's always been the case, as it is written in the rules - https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/fia_formula_1_financial_regulations_iss.12.pdf