The F1 thread

stickyfiddle

Is it any more interesting on the telly? 

The commentary here is useless 

fretmeister

Nope
 

stickyfiddle

I’m making up it with Golden circle for the Foos. Didn’t even have to pay extra!!! 

Though the atrocious “warmup” DJs can get in the sea

Cols

Well, thank goodness that season’s over.  The most crushingly dull display of dominance since the Schumacher-Ferrari years - let’s hope the other teams do a much better job with their 2024 challengers.

Aside from that, on the strength of current performances I certainly wouldn’t keep Perez in the Red Bull for 2024… but nor would I put Ricciardo in the seat.

TimmyO

Cols said:

Well, thank goodness that season’s over.  The most crushingly dull display of dominance since the Schumacher-Ferrari years - let’s hope the other teams do a much better job with their 2024 challengers.

Aside from that, on the strength of current performances I certainly wouldn’t keep Perez in the Red Bull for 2024… but nor would I put Ricciardo in the seat.

As a McLaren fan it was an interesting season - for very different reasons at different points - I just kind of ignored the seeming ease of things at the sharp end. 

Agree Perez doesn't seem consistent enough to be in a car that looks like it should be able to get 1-2 most weekends.

As for Ricc - he is at least reliable - I have no idea what was going on with him at McLaren. I think the main reason to go with a less-known quantity over him would be cost and whether that other person brings money to the team. 

stickyfiddle

As a McLaren & Williams fan in general I feel like it was not a bad year. McLaren had a brutally shit start but ended up properly sorting it out for the second half. 

Albon has generally been fantastic for Williams so I hope they can keep moving forwards. God knows about Sargeant. To end up 21st in a championship with 20 cars when your team is 7th in the WCC isn't a great look, however you spin it. 

Penn

I think to review the year:

Started shit, ended up even shitterer. 

Glad it’s over. Sadly I suspect next year will be more of the same. Pity really, at least if the second Red Bull driver was someone decent there would be something to watch. Max going around a lap ahead of everyone gets boring fast.  

PC_Dave

When Zak Brown was interviewed by the C4 guys they asked if he was happy that McLaren looked to be closing the gap to Red Bull going into the winter break, and his reply was along the lines of "yes, if Red Bull are utilising all their pace", which means some teams think RB aren't near their limits... that's ominous and doesn't bode well for next year....

stickyfiddle

PC_Dave said:

When Zak Brown was interviewed by the C4 guys they asked if he was happy that McLaren looked to be closing the gap to Red Bull going into the winter break, and his reply was along the lines of "yes, if Red Bull are utilising all their pace", which means some teams think RB aren't near their limits... that's ominous and doesn't bode well for next year....

Of course. I think it's pretty clear that Max hasn't been flat out in the back end of most races this year. 

dazzajl

Hopefully RB won’t have the same kind of dominance next year. Which doesn’t seem a totally unrealistic hope since the whole grid will be minor variations on a RB copy. 

Cols

Oh yes - if it wasn’t for Verstappen it would have been a classic season.  Remove him from the results and you’ve got a closely fought battle, with Perez’s strong first half of the year resulting in him taking his first world championship ahead of Hamilton.  Wins for Leclerc, Norris, Alonso, Piastri and Hamilton as well.

breakstuff

Ban Verstappen from quali, and make him start from the back for every race. Should spice things up a bit 

Joking aside, he'd still probably win at least half of the races.

crosstownvamp

dazzajl said:

Hopefully RB won’t have the same kind of dominance next year. Which doesn’t seem a totally unrealistic hope since the whole grid will be minor variations on a RB copy. 

How easy is that for other teams to do though?

They know the theory of what Newey did, but doesn't it all come down to wind tunnel testing and fine tolerances?

It's not like they can take measurements off the RB car.

sinbaadi

RBR have smashed it.  They have done what every single team and driver would do, if they knew how. 

19 race wins in a single season is insane.  Hats off to RBR and Max for that.  Just relentless and totally dominant.

Don't bemoan it, applaud it.  They have F1'd to the max (no pun) and that is what F1 is all about.  Lando, Charles, and Fernando etc would all just steam roll the season if they could.  Ruthless, calculating, dull, beautiful success.

Sergio is fine as long as he brings a few million with him, and Max scored enough points to theoretically win the Constructors' for RBR on his own anyway.

Boromedic

^^^ yeah, but it's like Clough/Revie, some teams and drivers would do it the right way, and others would do it the wrong way. RBR and particularly Verstappen are definitely in the latter category, classless and cartoon villainous. It's like watching the bad guys win and it feels wrong to me.

I had to laugh at Horner in the press stating about dynasties, and how they'd broken Mercedes dominance without a reg change. Errrr no Christian, you were given the title by the FIA, subtle difference, dickhead. Plus you didn't win the constructors either....

Cols

crosstownvamp said:

dazzajl said:

Hopefully RB won’t have the same kind of dominance next year. Which doesn’t seem a totally unrealistic hope since the whole grid will be minor variations on a RB copy. 

How easy is that for other teams to do though?

They know the theory of what Newey did, but doesn't it all come down to wind tunnel testing and fine tolerances?

It's not like they can take measurements off the RB car.

It’s complicated.  A lot of Red Bull’s performance advantage comes from their sophisticated understanding of underbody aerodynamics, which is nor easy for other teams to study let alone replicate.

The first indication of how far ahead Red Bull are in this aspect came at Monaco this year, when Perez binned it at Sainte Devote.  As the car was hoisted in the air by the recovery crane, everyone got a good look up Red Bull’s skirt.

When Hamilton put his car in the wall in final practice, everyone also got a look at the Merc underbody (much to the annoyance of Toto Wolff.  The difference was shocking, with the Red Bull’s architecture visibly more intricate with high tunnels.


In contrast, the Mercedes underbody is much simpler.


The result was a Red Bull which delivered a much better spread of downforce through different ride height, and (in the hands of Verstappen at least) was much faster than any other car.  Unpicking all of that is going to be a right job for the other teams.

stickyfiddle

Cheers @Cols I hadn’t seen those drawings before. You’re exactly right, and of course to beat RV you not only have to match that, but out-develop to get on par with where they will be after another 8 months of development since Monaco

markr76

Cols said:

crosstownvamp said:

dazzajl said:

Hopefully RB won’t have the same kind of dominance next year. Which doesn’t seem a totally unrealistic hope since the whole grid will be minor variations on a RB copy. 

How easy is that for other teams to do though?

They know the theory of what Newey did, but doesn't it all come down to wind tunnel testing and fine tolerances?

It's not like they can take measurements off the RB car.

It’s complicated.  A lot of Red Bull’s performance advantage comes from their sophisticated understanding of underbody aerodynamics, which is nor easy for other teams to study let alone replicate.

The first indication of how far ahead Red Bull are in this aspect came at Monaco this year, when Perez binned it at Sainte Devote.  As the car was hoisted in the air by the recovery crane, everyone got a good look up Red Bull’s skirt.

When Hamilton put his car in the wall in final practice, everyone also got a look at the Merc underbody (much to the annoyance of Toto Wolff.  The difference was shocking, with the Red Bull’s architecture visibly more intricate with high tunnels.


In contrast, the Mercedes underbody is much simpler.


The result was a Red Bull which delivered a much better spread of downforce through different ride height, and (in the hands of Verstappen at least) was much faster than any other car.  Unpicking all of that is going to be a right job for the other teams.

Don’t forget Red bulls flexing skid blocks. Which lets them run the car lower downs which is where the big down force lives. Their car isn’t illegal though as the FIA changed the rules to allow this. As in reality everything flexes. You just need the FIA to actually give a figure of how much is allowed. 

Another big thing they will have got sorted out is the suspension. The mechanical grip and dampening is super important with these rules.

McLaren’s new technical director who is ex Redbull is a master of mechanical grip apparently. Which is probably the biggest thing that’s made them jump up to front runners. 

crosstownvamp

Cols said:

crosstownvamp said:

dazzajl said:

Hopefully RB won’t have the same kind of dominance next year. Which doesn’t seem a totally unrealistic hope since the whole grid will be minor variations on a RB copy. 

How easy is that for other teams to do though?

They know the theory of what Newey did, but doesn't it all come down to wind tunnel testing and fine tolerances?

It's not like they can take measurements off the RB car.

It’s complicated.  A lot of Red Bull’s performance advantage comes from their sophisticated understanding of underbody aerodynamics, which is nor easy for other teams to study let alone replicate.

The first indication of how far ahead Red Bull are in this aspect came at Monaco this year, when Perez binned it at Sainte Devote.  As the car was hoisted in the air by the recovery crane, everyone got a good look up Red Bull’s skirt.

When Hamilton put his car in the wall in final practice, everyone also got a look at the Merc underbody (much to the annoyance of Toto Wolff.  The difference was shocking, with the Red Bull’s architecture visibly more intricate with high tunnels.


In contrast, the Mercedes underbody is much simpler.


The result was a Red Bull which delivered a much better spread of downforce through different ride height, and (in the hands of Verstappen at least) was much faster than any other car.  Unpicking all of that is going to be a right job for the other teams.

Wow fascinating. You'd think all those ridges would create more turbulence and a very bumpy ride, but it must be creating pockets of downforce (as if I have a clue). I wonder if Newey gets info from military stealth jet designers!

dazzajl

crosstownvamp said:

 I wonder if Newey gets info from military stealth jet designers!

They probably ask him