incoming mki tonebender

randomhandclaps

ICBM said:

Also for what it's worth, of the builders you listed, Skreddy uses the grounding scheme and Pete Cornish doesn't use true bypass at all.

Actually having just repaired a DAM Drag n' Fly just last week - as well as several before I can confirm that DAM also actually use the wiring version like the Skreddy diagram, as does Mike Fuller use a slight variation but same effect.

Although @ICBM's argument regarding failure (despite mathematically making sense) might seem remote as people tend to think 'if a switch goes, it goes' he is spot on.  More so the grounding of board inputs is more important (especially with fuzz and high gain effects) than many realise.

Arcane

TheCount said:

Arcane said:

TheCount said:

One above is my fave but I use pcb's these days which is much faster and neater. Probably wouldn't want to if you're going for the 'vintage vibe'

At the end of the day, all 3pdt are crap no matter how you wire them. Too noisy and unreliable

They are only unreliable if you do not have good soldering technique.

So every builder that's had a switch go has bad soldering technique????

Well that must be about everyone, other than you

Yes - this is exactly what I said. Thank you for that. I can see this is simply a waste of my time at this point.

nickb_boy

For the OP the pedal looks very nice. I didn't think the yy enclosures are made anymore (if anyone knows where to get them I'll be keen to hear!).

The talk about true bypass wiring reminded me of some comments that Philippe from Caroline guitar made a while back along Jack Deville from Mr Black pedals. Don't want to derail the thread anymore and I'm not going to pretend I know any technical information about it, but I'm just keen to hear opinions:

Theres a little blog here as well about switch pop and TBP which goes into a bit more depth:
MrBlack

TheCount

Arcane said:

TheCount said:

Arcane said:

TheCount said:

One above is my fave but I use pcb's these days which is much faster and neater. Probably wouldn't want to if you're going for the 'vintage vibe'

At the end of the day, all 3pdt are crap no matter how you wire them. Too noisy and unreliable

They are only unreliable if you do not have good soldering technique.

So every builder that's had a switch go has bad soldering technique????

Well that must be about everyone, other than you

Yes - this is exactly what I said. Thank you for that. I can see this is simply a waste of my time at this point.

Right, let's compile a list.

Anyone that has ever had a switch fail, name the company/builder here. We will then contact said builder, ask them if they realise their soldering technique is below standard according to Arcane Analogue nd suggest they contact him for guidance on how to do their jobs properly

I'll go first

Analogman

Arcane

TheCount said:

Arcane said:

TheCount said:

Arcane said:

TheCount said:

One above is my fave but I use pcb's these days which is much faster and neater. Probably wouldn't want to if you're going for the 'vintage vibe'

At the end of the day, all 3pdt are crap no matter how you wire them. Too noisy and unreliable

They are only unreliable if you do not have good soldering technique.

So every builder that's had a switch go has bad soldering technique????

Well that must be about everyone, other than you

Yes - this is exactly what I said. Thank you for that. I can see this is simply a waste of my time at this point.

Right, let's compile a list.

Anyone that has ever had a switch fail, name the company/builder here. We will then contact said builder, ask them if they realise their soldering technique is below standard according to Arcane Analogue nd suggest they contact him for guidance on how to do their jobs properly

I'll go first

Analogman

Your internal sarcasm meter is broken - I have already said in this thread that all switches will eventually fail as they are mechanical devices. Again, seeing as you do not bother to read what I have posted I am wasting my time responding to yours.

 

Arcane

randomhandclaps said:

ICBM said:

Also for what it's worth, of the builders you listed, Skreddy uses the grounding scheme and Pete Cornish doesn't use true bypass at all.

Actually having just repaired a DAM Drag n' Fly just last week - as well as several before I can confirm that DAM also actually use the wiring version like the Skreddy diagram, as does Mike Fuller use a slight variation but same effect.

Although @ICBM's argument regarding failure (despite mathematically making sense) might seem remote as people tend to think 'if a switch goes, it goes' he is spot on.  More so the grounding of board inputs is more important (especially with fuzz and high gain effects) than many realise.

I have said that I have used that layout before - DAM and Skreddy are still doing it wrong with that layout because they do not use the "x". Remember, you are wiring it "wrong" unless it is exactly as ICBM states.

TheCount

Arcane said:

TheCount said:

Arcane said:

TheCount said:

Arcane said:

TheCount said:

One above is my fave but I use pcb's these days which is much faster and neater. Probably wouldn't want to if you're going for the 'vintage vibe'

At the end of the day, all 3pdt are crap no matter how you wire them. Too noisy and unreliable

They are only unreliable if you do not have good soldering technique.

So every builder that's had a switch go has bad soldering technique????

Well that must be about everyone, other than you

Yes - this is exactly what I said. Thank you for that. I can see this is simply a waste of my time at this point.

Right, let's compile a list.

Anyone that has ever had a switch fail, name the company/builder here. We will then contact said builder, ask them if they realise their soldering technique is below standard according to Arcane Analogue nd suggest they contact him for guidance on how to do their jobs properly

I'll go first

Analogman

Your internal sarcasm meter is broken - I have already said in this thread that all switches will eventually fail as they are mechanical devices. Again, seeing as you do not bother to read what I have posted I am wasting my time.

 

But you also said that you've never had one fail. Maybe they're not getting used that much

 

Arcane

I can certainly use my time in a more productive fashion than trading posts in this thread.

Thanks, and I hope you enjoy the pedals, allicio.

TheCount

Is your internal sarcasm meter broken?

Forge

Looking forward to @Allicio's review. MKIs are great fuzzes, brash and beautiful in a good valve amp.

ThePrettyDamned

Forge said:

Looking forward to @Allicio's review. MKIs are great fuzzes, brash and beautiful in a good valve amp.

Same here, actually.  

Regardless of the wiring of the switch and the possible lack of shake proof washers (hopefully they have been fitted before they were sent out, mind!), it looks like a nice pedal and that circuit is a pretty cool sounding thing.  

That said, I don't know why arcane has such a bee in his bonnet. I'm assuming he's arcane analogue, in which case, he's successfully selling pedals.  All he's managed here is quite poor PR and a reluctance to admit that he might, just might, be able to improve his pedals a teeny bit.  

It's the going of that extra mile that would help convince me to spend out on one...

randomhandclaps

ThePrettyDamned said:

That said, I don't know why arcane has such a bee in his bonnet.

Do you having any idea what time it was in Canada when he was posting?  Tiredness kills!

allicio

My good god! I work a night shift, go to bed and world war three kicks off!
I started this thread because I wanted to show off the build and recommend the builder. Including the pedals ive got on order I'll have 9 of arcanes pedals. As some of you know given my frequention of the classifieds ive had a fuck tonne of pedals including all the builders that have been listed by various people in this thread.
I'm not just saying this.
But Andrews/arcanes are the finest SOUNDING AND BUILT pedals ive ever had the pleasure of playing.
The guy is a pleasure to work with and will work with you to get whatever it is your after. He's also immensely proud of his builds, offers a lifetime guarantee (1 year for the 40 year old trannies he uses just incase he hasn't got anymore) and will fix any problem for free.

To be fair ICBM should have started a new thread about the intricacies of wiring a footswitch. It was poor form to jump in criticising his work. I tried to point out the first picture wasnt complete build and wasn't wired up completely.

Ive been trying to persuade the chap to post here for a while as he's extremely knowledgeable, especially on the vintage side of things, but instead he ends up having to join to defend his work!
I don't wanna carry on with this argument and as ive said it should have had its own thread!
There's obviously more than one way to wire the damn switch that much we've established, now ICBM wishes more pedal builders would wire it the way he recommends. Fair enough. But andrew/arcane also stated he's tried it that way and it doesn't work for him. Fair enough.

@theprettydamned he's got a bee in his bonnet as his works been needlessly criticised by someone saying he doesn't know how to wire the switch and has used the usual crap method!
I'd defend it too if I'd taken hours to build a pedal for somebody who was trying to showcase said pedal that he's just bought and can't wait to play it!

This all got far too out of hand,

I'll post a review when the mki arrives and also a PIC of the locking metal washers for ICBM.

@nickb_boy yy enclosure arnt made anymore as you point out. This was one arcane has had put to one side for a couple of years and I asked him if i could have a mki circuit built into it.

MikkiMcMurderer

Arcane said:

I can certainly use my time in a more productive fashion rather than destroying my reputation for being reasonable and open to well-informed feedback in this thread.

Fixed for you...

allicio

As the only 'user' in this thread I'm perfectly happy the way the pedals are built thanks!
Stupid arsed comments like this don't exactly bring anything helpful to thread either.

MikkiMcMurderer

Come on! Consider the amount of great advice ICBM gives to all on a daily basis for free!!!! I for one am extremely happy to stick up for him against this pathetic attack from someone who's got completely the wrong end of the stick!!!

randomhandclaps

allicio said:

To be fair ICBM should have started a new thread about the intricacies of wiring a footswitch. It was poor form to jump in criticising his work.

I can kind of agree with that and understand why he may have taken @ICBM's comment poorly.  His reaction though was a bit ridiculous IMO.  For the record whether you look at it mathematically or electronic ICBM was indeed right.  Assessing how significant the points about risk of failure or oscillation are to each specific circuit and pedal is really open to opinion and there is a lot more to go wrong in any pedal than the footswitch alone (and I am applying that to any builder or manufacturer). 

allicio said:

Ive been trying to persuade the chap to post here for a while as he's extremely knowledgeable, especially on the vintage side of things, but instead he ends up having to join to defend his work!

For me this is where in his (over)reaction he has done himself the most damage.  Undoubtedly you like his stuff as you have returned to him and been happy each time.  You could see by reading the thread that people were interested and looking forward to hearing it.  So far so good - as a builder what more could you ask for?

His first post was to defend what he saw as unwarranted criticism.  This place (like most forums) is full of knowledgeable people all with difference skill sets and in any forum context (especially as a business) it is worth knowing where your understanding stops and hence keep quiet.  Had he thought that @ICBM was the biggest troll in the world or just an over opinionated arsehole the smart thing would have been to just ignore him.  As it happens whether it was right or wrong  for ICBM to highlight it here he was right and anyone with any decent electronic or more specifically guitar electronics understanding could see that plain as day.  It was actually unarguable.  That doesn't mean it has to be done only that way, but it is the 'way of least risk' (shall we say for the sake of peace).  If you wanted to challenge ICBM then the best response would have been to say "Yes I take your point but that is how I choose to do it.".  Instead to try and challenge ICBM with a 'what have you done?' was rather childish and silly. He then tried to prove himself right by quoting (assuming people would accept his knowledge as gospel) other famous and successful builders who do it his way.  In fact all but Pigdog were completely incorrect.  What it really showed it that in his 'experience' how little time he has actually spent working with and looking at other guitar electronics - which for a guy 'recreating' classic effects doesn't come across well.  So in trying to bully ICBM out of the argument by deriding his possible knowledge, he has just revealed a massive hole in his.

It really was a silly thing to blow up about in the first place.  I used to run a workshop for people who wanted to learn how make simple musical circuits like boosts and fuzz etc. and practice soldering skills.  In truth although I completely concur with @ICBM methodology, when teaching people I would sometimes use the same method as Arcane simply because in the tight space of a footswitch and with limited soldering skills it was easier for students to wire it this way.  When it really comes to failure I would say the increase in failure chance due to the type of footswitch wiring is very low but nonetheless as ICBM highlight does exist. 

I really struggle to understand why in such an open platform as the internet business owners rise to bait of any kind.  Be quietly confident in your product and let it speak for itself.

My earlier comment about the Canadian time difference was meant semi-seriously in that I hope it was just a tired overreaction.

ICBM

I perhaps should have phrased the original comment better. However I do genuinely believe that wiring a switch the 'standard' way is plain wrong, because it increases unreliability for absolutely no advantage or sense whatsoever. Even just bridging one of the two bypass contacts is better - which is the simplest solution to a dead one where it's just the bypass that's affected.

It is true that I see a disproportionate number of broken switches - I fix things professionally, so of course I mostly only see broken ones. But not entirely - I've also owned several true-bypass pedals from good makers, and several of the switches have failed. I don't stamp on pedals either. OK, all of them were bought second hand so I can't be sure about the previous owners.

I'm not a builder, and I'm not even a 'big-time' repairer. I never said I was. But I've been doing this quite a long time and do understand the basics of making things reliable, and one is not to use two potential failure points when the job can be done exactly the same with only one. And also that parallel redundancy is very good way of ensuring better reliability.

I would be genuinely interested in why wiring it the way I do is bad practice. I can't think of any reason, but if I've missed something it would be helpful to know... like everyone I make mistakes and I can always learn new things. In fact it does make sense to keep the in and out sides further apart, so I will start doing that if it's sensible to. (This is not sarcasm, in case that isn't clear.)

As I said at the very beginning, it was mainly frustration to see someone who can build a pedal to such a high standard of workmanship, also using such a poor bypass scheme when *any* other scheme is better - there is more than one. I didn't come here purposely to start an argument or attack Arcane specifically, in fact anyone who has been here a while will know it's one of my stuck-record topics .

But I think a few people in the boutique gear world could do well to stop treating any criticism as invalid if it doesn't come from someone in the 'in crowd'. I repair all types of gear from cheap to expensive so I have opinions on most of it. Some of the expensive construction is better... some is not.

I don't know everything and I am not always right, and I like arguing about stuff. This is an internet discussion forum, it's what it's for .

joeyowen

Bro hug the fuck out guys.

Yes I'm newb to this forum, but surely you guys are bit big for this?

@arcane you do seem to be a bit over defensive, I didn't think anyone was particularly rude, and I was only questioning out of curiosity, certainly not to derail your work.

As for everyone else trying to wind him up, drop it off Why can't we all be friends

I for one found this thread quite informative, once I read between the slaps haha

allicio

His etching works fucking ace! Just to get back on track!!