Bartel amps

ditchboy

From what I’ve seen and heard they look superb bits of kit. Highly unlikely I’ll ever own one but if I had the spare cash I wouldn’t hesitate. Maybe his new 3w version will be £99 and I’ll pick one up and scrap the £50 Blackstar I just bought. 

Nerine

chris78 said:

Nerine said:

If I was looking for something broadly similar, I’d look at the Morgan MVP23. 

I’ve owned a Morgan mvp23, which are amazing bang for the buck and I’m a huge fan.
They aren’t similar 

How would they differ if mic’d through the same cab and speaker? 

chris78

Nerine said:

chris78 said:

Nerine said:

If I was looking for something broadly similar, I’d look at the Morgan MVP23. 

I’ve owned a Morgan mvp23, which are amazing bang for the buck and I’m a huge fan.
They aren’t similar 

How would they differ if mic’d through the same cab and speaker? 

The mvp cleans are more dumble style so that pristine, dare I say slightly bright, sterile sound? Might be a touch harsh but you get the idea. The bartel are richer and more complex.
The cabinet though is a huge factor with the bartel. It’s what really sets them apart and that’s something I find hard to describe but it’s got the ability to fill a room and cut without being loud that nothing else I’ve experienced does

thebreeze

@thinline72 thanks for sharing all your thoughts, much appreciated.

For my part, I haven't got a vast range of experience from trying lots of different kinds of amps.  I'm from the "if something works for me, I stick with it" school of thinking.

I generally used a Fender Blues Deluxe for most of my guitar playing life and was very happy with it, particularly the cleans.  However, over time I began to recognise that I liked amps which lent themselves to a more Fendery blackface kind of sound.  So having owned the FBD for about 20 years or so I set about looking for a new amp.

As soon as I heard a Tone King Imperial I was really impressed but couldn't get on with the Tweed/Drive channel so I opted for a Metropolitan instead.  A bit later I stumbled across a really early Imperial that was for sale and went to check it out.  This was in a different ballpark to the production Imperials which came later.  It was the 12th one he ever made and was a kind of prototype.  As such it has an extra valve to the regular Imperials and is wired slightly differently too.  I bought it on the spot and sold the Metropolitan.  I've been playing it for the last 8 years (it's 30 years old now) and it's been magnificent.  I also liked the way you could contact Mark Bartel and how he was so enthusiastic and helpful.  He informed me that Mark Knopfler owns one of these very early ones too and christened it "the King of clean".

So being a fan I couldn't prevent my curiosity getting the better of me and I did a deal to get a Roseland.  Now I've got a real dilemma!  I'd thought I'd try it out, have some fun and then sell on and continue with the Imperial.  However, the Roseland is equally good.  It perhaps doesn't quite have the prominence and shine of the Imperial in the Blackface area but it's definitely more varied and some of the tones are plain joyous at any volume.  I just can't stop playing at times.  Equally, I've never particularly used a lot of Tremolo before but I've never heard one as good as this, it's addictive.  As @chris78 says, the build and cabinet are also impressive and it's true that thing about being able to cut through in all it's depth without being loud - so great in the band context.  It can even sound different depending on where you place it in a room.  For me, the extent and range of different tones that you can get out of this one amplifier, feels like having multiple different kinds of instruments - my guitar, usually a Tele, can sound like a different instrument, not just a difference in tone but it's actually like playing a different instrument (hard to describe but something like that).

There's no doubt for me that Mark Bartel doesn't really consider his work as a business thing (although that obviously comes into it a bit) but much more as his Art.  I think he sold up from Tone King just so that he could be free to do what he felt he had to do to build brilliant amps that weren't completely unaffordable (he's experimented with building amps costing in excess of £20K).

There's a video where he's explaining some of this and his developments historically, which I'll post up if I can find it.

And yes (thanks @chris78) I've begun to find settings which work simply using the guitar volume for both clean and lead, which is another great advantage to me as I don't like using pedals at all if I can avoid it.

thebreeze

paulmapp8306

fretfinder said:

Blimey, if I was only using one clean sound I don’t think I’d need to have an amp that cost so much money.   I’m not questioning your choice to play such a fantastic quality amp as a Bartel at all though!

See - I Only need one clean sound too......Id get everything else from pedals - which I s why I nee the headroom.   
Ultimately though, Im looking for a top quality amp build woise, meaning hand wired, point to point, best available components etc - with the right clean base.  

the Bartels are on the expensive side for that certainly, bu so are two rocks which are also on my list.  

My main issue is finding the "right" clean base for me.  I like a fender low end and a Vox top - which is hard to come by.  Fener no issue, marshall no issue, vox o issue, marshal/fender hybrids you can find.  Marshal/Vox hybrids you can find.   

Ive not tried the bratel or Two rock yet (Fleetingly tried an older studio pro which bodes well for the sig models).  Best two to date were the Suhr Bella - could do with a little more glass up top, and a Morgan RP12.  Thats more Tweed based with large transformers - that tightens the low end and gives more body.  the only issue was not quite enough headroom (volume) before it breaks up - and not enough clean sweep area on the pot - its breaking up by 1....  

DrCornelius

paulmapp8306 said:

My main issue is finding the "right" clean base for me.  I like a fender low end and a Vox top - which is hard to come by.  Fener no issue, marshall no issue, vox o issue, marshal/fender hybrids you can find.  Marshal/Vox hybrids you can find.   

A couple of amps sprung into my head reading that Paul, have you tried any Dr Zs or Genz Benz's, I always think they straddle that Vox/Fender area well

paulmapp8306

chris78 said:

The cabinet though is a huge factor with the bartel. It’s what really sets them apart and that’s something I find hard to describe but it’s got the ability to fill a room and cut without being loud that nothing else I’ve experienced does

This..... The materials he uses, and how hes tuned them for the amp is another level.   This alone makes them worth the cost IMO.

paulmapp8306

DrCornelius said:

paulmapp8306 said:

My main issue is finding the "right" clean base for me.  I like a fender low end and a Vox top - which is hard to come by.  Fener no issue, marshall no issue, vox o issue, marshal/fender hybrids you can find.  Marshal/Vox hybrids you can find.   

A couple of amps sprung into my head reading that Paul, have you tried any Dr Zs or Genz Benz's, I always think they straddle that Vox/Fender area well

Maz 18 is on the list to try.

Tried:

Suhr Bader - nope
Suhr Bella - nice, but fin loud and not quite glassy enough up top
Morgan PR12 - nice clean sound, needs more clean sweep area on the pot and clean volume though.
Tone King Imperial 2 - didnt like it.  Not enough low end and not enough glass up top.
Matchless Clearwater Canyon - TOO much glass lol, not enough low end.  BReaks up too early.
Two Rock Studio Pro - a little flat actually, but the newer sig versions have more options to help there.

On the "to try "List new:

Dr  Z Maz 18 (or any others that might work for me lol)
/13 CJ11
Two Rock Studio Sig
Magnatone Twighlighter
Matchless DC30
Hamstead 20+ RT
Bartel Starwood


Amps id Like to try - but no UK dealer;

Amplified Nation - Wonderland Overdrive AND Wonderland Reverb
Cornell TSR 20 (studio Rats sign model)

Used Amps - no longer available new Id like to try somehow

Blackstar Artisan 30 and 15
Fender Concert - Paul Rivera Era (83/84 or 85)

StuartMac290

paulmapp8306 said:

DrCornelius said:

paulmapp8306 said:

My main issue is finding the "right" clean base for me.  I like a fender low end and a Vox top - which is hard to come by.  Fener no issue, marshall no issue, vox o issue, marshal/fender hybrids you can find.  Marshal/Vox hybrids you can find.   

A couple of amps sprung into my head reading that Paul, have you tried any Dr Zs or Genz Benz's, I always think they straddle that Vox/Fender area well

Maz 18 is on the list to try.

Tried:

Suhr Bader - nope
Suhr Bella - nice, but fin loud and not quite glassy enough up top
Morgan PR12 - nice clean sound, needs more clean sweep area on the pot and clean volume though.
Tone King Imperial 2 - didnt like it.  Not enough low end and not enough glass up top.
Matchless Clearwater Canyon - TOO much glass lol, not enough low end.  BReaks up too early.
Two Rock Studio Pro - a little flat actually, but the newer sig versions have more options to help there.

On the "to try "List new:

Dr  Z Maz 18 (or any others that might work for me lol)
/13 CJ11
Two Rock Studio Sig
Magnatone Twighlighter
Matchless DC30
Hamstead 20+ RT
Bartel Starwood


Amps id Like to try - but no UK dealer;

Amplified Nation - Wonderland Overdrive AND Wonderland Reverb
Cornell TSR 20 (studio Rats sign model)

Used Amps - no longer available new Id like to try somehow

Blackstar Artisan 30 and 15
Fender Concert - Paul Rivera Era (83/84 or 85)

Two that spring to mind: Matchless Laurel Canyon - more clean headroom than the Coldwater Canyon. I'm not sure a DC30 will have enough girth on the low end for you.

But more likely, 3rd Power Kitchen Sink, which has the ability to blend between voices.

chris78

paulmapp8306 said:

fretfinder said:

Blimey, if I was only using one clean sound I don’t think I’d need to have an amp that cost so much money.   I’m not questioning your choice to play such a fantastic quality amp as a Bartel at all though!

See - I Only need one clean sound too......Id get everything else from pedals - which I s why I nee the headroom.   
Ultimately though, Im looking for a top quality amp build woise, meaning hand wired, point to point, best available components etc - with the right clean base.  

the Bartels are on the expensive side for that certainly, bu so are two rocks which are also on my list.  

My main issue is finding the "right" clean base for me.  I like a fender low end and a Vox top - which is hard to come by.  Fener no issue, marshall no issue, vox o issue, marshal/fender hybrids you can find.  Marshal/Vox hybrids you can find.   

Ive not tried the bratel or Two rock yet (Fleetingly tried an older studio pro which bodes well for the sig models).  Best two to date were the Suhr Bella - could do with a little more glass up top, and a Morgan RP12.  Thats more Tweed based with large transformers - that tightens the low end and gives more body.  the only issue was not quite enough headroom (volume) before it breaks up - and not enough clean sweep area on the pot - its breaking up by 1....  

I reckon the bartel should work for you.
Theres a range of hybrid tones so I’d imagine you’d get the tone you want either by setting in blackface mode and using the push/pull on the newer ones to get more top end or setting treble around nine and bass around 4/5. 

The manual will give you the base settings- vox, blackface, tweed, Marshall etc, but the amp can do so much more. 

The other thing to do is speak to Mark Bartel. I’m pretty confident he’ll chat to you about what his wonderful creations can do and how to set the amp for what you’re looking for.

Boromedic

paulmapp8306 said:

DrCornelius said:

paulmapp8306 said:

My main issue is finding the "right" clean base for me.  I like a fender low end and a Vox top - which is hard to come by.  Fener no issue, marshall no issue, vox o issue, marshal/fender hybrids you can find.  Marshal/Vox hybrids you can find.   

A couple of amps sprung into my head reading that Paul, have you tried any Dr Zs or Genz Benz's, I always think they straddle that Vox/Fender area well

Maz 18 is on the list to try.

Tried:

Suhr Bader - nope
Suhr Bella - nice, but fin loud and not quite glassy enough up top
Morgan PR12 - nice clean sound, needs more clean sweep area on the pot and clean volume though.
Tone King Imperial 2 - didnt like it.  Not enough low end and not enough glass up top.
Matchless Clearwater Canyon - TOO much glass lol, not enough low end.  BReaks up too early.
Two Rock Studio Pro - a little flat actually, but the newer sig versions have more options to help there.

On the "to try "List new:

Dr  Z Maz 18 (or any others that might work for me lol)
/13 CJ11
Two Rock Studio Sig
Magnatone Twighlighter
Matchless DC30
Hamstead 20+ RT
Bartel Starwood


Amps id Like to try - but no UK dealer;

Amplified Nation - Wonderland Overdrive AND Wonderland Reverb
Cornell TSR 20 (studio Rats sign model)

Used Amps - no longer available new Id like to try somehow

Blackstar Artisan 30 and 15
Fender Concert - Paul Rivera Era (83/84 or 85)

Don't bother with the Fender Concert mate, too loud and very harsh sounding I'd say. I have a Dr Z Jaz 20/40 for sale which I think covers the ground you mentioned and will do all the headroom you need at 40 watts. Appreciate I'm trying to sell it but I'm also being honest about it's range of tones. 

Catthan

any releases where one can hear a Bartel? 

thebreeze

Catthan said:

any releases where one can hear a Bartel? 

I’m not sure but the guitarist in Ringo’s current All Stars band gigs one.  Colin Hay of Men At Work I think?

Catthan

@thebreeze, thanks. always interested to see how such boutique gear works in the field and a good opportunity to enjoy some Luke with his Bogner Helios (my type of amp..)

Th4fonz

Bartel are great they had a load of them in hanks Denmark street at one point I really can’t remember the models though but they were tweed looking.  I had a quick play and sounded great.  I owned an imperial mk2 also and I echo your views on it.  Still a great amp just not for my needs I ended up getting rid of it for the Cornell Romany 12 which I love tbh.  

There is definitely something unique to the Bartel tone that is different and unless you are a traditionalist like myself in wanting that fender clean then nothing else will do.  

ditchboy

Th4fonz said:

Bartel are great they had a load of them in hanks Denmark street at one point I really can’t remember the models though but they were tweed looking.  I had a quick play and sounded great.  I owned an imperial mk2 also and I echo your views on it.  Still a great amp just not for my needs I ended up getting rid of it for the Cornell Romany 12 which I love tbh.  

There is definitely something unique to the Bartel tone that is different and unless you are a traditionalist like myself in wanting that fender clean then nothing else will do.  

Do you think the Cornell replicates the fender clean sound well? I’ve toyed with picking one up for the office. Either that or a 68 vibro champ. 

fretfinder

ditchboy said:

Th4fonz said: I owned an imperial mk2 also and I echo your views on it.  Still a great amp just not for my needs I ended up getting rid of it for the Cornell Romany 12 which I love tbh. 

Do you think the Cornell replicates the fender clean sound well? I’ve toyed with picking one up for the office. Either that or a 68 vibro champ. 

Just my opinion but I’ve owned a couple of Romanys (Romanies?) and thought they were not bad amps but not a patch on other tweed style amps like Victoria, Lazy J, Rift tweeds etc. Granted those are all more expensive but they are soooo much better sounding amps in my experience, having owned them all. Also, I’d say the Romany clean sound is not quite a Fender tweed sound really, and definitely nothing like a blackface sound, the reverb on mine was also rather crude and any more than a tiny amount seemed not very pleasant sounding.

I have nothing against Cornell amps by the way, I owned and gigged a Cornell Plexi 18/20 head for several years and it was the best sounding Marshall amp of that style that I’ve ever heard, and I say that having owned a couple of Marshall 2061X handwired heads, a TK Royalist and a Mojave Coyote as well. If the 18/20 had been a combo with reverb I never would have sold it.

I know the Romany has some supporters on here but I think there’s others like me who once they’ve tried the ‘better’ amps wouldn’t want to go back.

Th4fonz

ditchboy said:

Th4fonz said:

Bartel are great they had a load of them in hanks Denmark street at one point I really can’t remember the models though but they were tweed looking.  I had a quick play and sounded great.  I owned an imperial mk2 also and I echo your views on it.  Still a great amp just not for my needs I ended up getting rid of it for the Cornell Romany 12 which I love tbh.  

There is definitely something unique to the Bartel tone that is different and unless you are a traditionalist like myself in wanting that fender clean then nothing else will do.  

Do you think the Cornell replicates the fender clean sound well? I’ve toyed with picking one up for the office. Either that or a 68 vibro champ. 

I haven’t tried a lazy j as mentioned by fretfinder but I’ll definitely give my opinion on that when I do go coda this summer.

as for the clean I find this amp extremely versatile with the attenuation.  The clean tone I’d say is like a cross between a Princeton and a tweed.  It’s super dynamic and revealing.  As for the reverb mentioned by fretfinder I personally find it great like any other fender amps reverb and myne is a brand new amp and I don’t know if it has changed but for me on reviews where I have read you only need a little and it’s maxed isn’t the case on myne.  Myne has a gradual taper all the way on the dial and not feeling like it’s maxed on 2 and I generally run the reverb on 6.5.

u can get all those classic tweed tones by increasing the setting a b c d with C being the sweet spot to get lots of gain when maxing your guitar knob and rolling back to clean up.  If you want super crystal cleans wack is on setting A etc. flip the eq switch and ure instant Clapton era.  And as mentioned the price is fantastic at what half the price for a lazy J.  I got myne even less on guitar villages boss gone mad 10% off sale also.

 I’d be willing to upload a clip of it with a les paul if any of you lazy j 10 owners are for a comparison with a les paul.

mgaw

Plus one for Victoria amps, recently bought a few amps to go with my p90 loaded Collings i30 LC.  Ended up with a Victoria Ivy League as my fave, lovely clean tweed, needs a pedal for break up but the Lazy j cruiser is doing that job very well.

Victoria 5112 and Tone King Falcon grande are heading for the classifieds shortly

the 2nd hand prices for Victoria amps makes them a great buy imo