Back and forth with modelling vs tube amps.

stickyfiddle

TimmyO said:

digitalscream said:

Plus no faffing about trying to get the sound guy to run XLRs to the board - just mic it up, same as for everyone else.

don't both of those scenarios involve an XLR cable going from the stage to the desk or have I misunderstood something? 

I assume this is a question of XLR at the back for a cab mic vs XLR/DI at the front straight from your pedal-format modeller. 

I've run into this playing bass using an Origin Bassrig preamp. Even if there is an amp I want to use that just for monitoring and let the preamp DI straight to the FOH. This usually confuses the hell out of soundguys... 

TimmyO

stickyfiddle said:

TimmyO said:

digitalscream said:

Plus no faffing about trying to get the sound guy to run XLRs to the board - just mic it up, same as for everyone else.

don't both of those scenarios involve an XLR cable going from the stage to the desk or have I misunderstood something? 

I assume this is a question of XLR at the back for a cab mic vs XLR/DI at the front straight from your pedal-format modeller. 

I've run into this playing bass using an Origin Bassrig preamp. Even if there is an amp I want to use that just for monitoring and let the preamp DI straight to the FOH. This usually confuses the hell out of soundguys... 

gotcha 

digitalscream

TimmyO said:

digitalscream said:

Plus no faffing about trying to get the sound guy to run XLRs to the board - just mic it up, same as for everyone else.

don't both of those scenarios involve an XLR cable going from the stage to the desk or have I misunderstood something? 

Yes - but when all the other bands are using the mic-in-front-of-the-cab approach, and the sound guy doesn't want to move it (because they're always awkward), he inevitably ends up running a spare might-work cable across the stage, sighing heavily, then you spend 10 minutes of your would-be set time with him saying "No, turn it down, the signal's too hot" when you told him it's a line-level signal in the first place, then trying to get him to set the monitors up so you can actually hear yourself, then turn it down again because you can't hear anybody else etc, then balance it because there are only two monitors at the front and both singers need more of themselves...etc etc.

Ask me how I know all of this

It's far simpler to have the exact same setup as all the other bands without any of that hassle. There's also the fact that real speakers fundamentally sound better than IRs or profiled cabs.

digitalscream

chrisj1602 said:

Could you tell me more about this ADA MP-1?  I have seen you mention it in the ToneX One thread, but I am not familiar with it!  

High-gain rack preamp from the late 80s, most notably used by Nuno on Pornograffiti, but also Paul Gilbert, Skid Row and White Lion. Very unique-sounding, and nothing else has ever been made that quite sounds like them.

chrisj1602

@digitalscream cool thanks.

TTBZ

chris78 said:

The argument I can never agree with is “the audience won’t notice anyway”.

Frankly, they won’t, but they also won’t notice the bum note, the bit where you messed up the solo etc. However, you’ll know you did it and you’ll also know when your tone isn’t right.

Yeah, I couldn't really give a shit what the audience can or can't notice when it comes to tone, I want to be enjoying it and if it doesn't sound or feel as good then I don't play as well, which they are more likely to notice. 

I go back and forth on the modeller thing a lot. Being a somewhat lazy person with awkward parking/load in & out at home and at venues I love the convenience of just taking a guitar and pedalboard. My problem is I'm a "compulsive A/B'er" and always compare the digital stuff to real amps, or have "does it sound/feel as good?" in the back of my mind. With a real amp there's no question if it sounds right because it's the real thing (for better or worse!), so it's one less thing to nag at my obsessive brain. I don't gig at the minute so I'm mostly just playing through NAM captures at home, but already thinking of getting a load box again so I can have the real thing.

monquixote

digitalscream said:

chrisj1602 said:

Could you tell me more about this ADA MP-1?  I have seen you mention it in the ToneX One thread, but I am not familiar with it!  

High-gain rack preamp from the late 80s, most notably used by Nuno on Pornograffiti, but also Paul Gilbert, Skid Row and White Lion. Very unique-sounding, and nothing else has ever been made that quite sounds like them.

I'm a big fan of Nembrini and I believe they do a very good emulation of one. 

Is there anything they are especially good at. Is it kind of an 80's rawk thing?

Nerine

CaseOfAce said:

Played an outside gig at a folk festival at the weekend. Large covered stage full PA stack either side facing onto a large courtyard with soundman in the booth at the back.

The bass player turned up with his bass stack thinking that since we were outside this was his chance to re-enact The Who at Chartlon Athletic football ground in '74.
I had my Hot Rod Deluxe on a stand behind me (to lazy to bring additional speaker but hopes of cranking the power section for once).

Soundcheck - I'm a third or so the way up on my HRD (sounds quite reasonable - loud but not punishing). No mics on the guitar or bass speakers.
IMMEDIATELY me and the bass player get told to turn down - we're drowning out the vocals. 
Friends agree.

We reluctantly do so - and get this - me and the bass player proceed to play the gig un-miced with an SM57 hanging over the drumkit and the vocals going thru the PA.
(the sound guy even turned off the DI feed from the bass player cos there was enough signal already from the stage).

I love valve amps - but it would be nice to actually do a gig where I could get the things warmed up.

I usually find my amp is turned up more in smaller venues than it is on large festival stages. 

There’s just loads more separation and isolation on big stages so the amp volume never needs to be as high, I’ve found. 

Plus, add loads of monitoring and I’m more than happy to have my guitar amp at lower volumes. I use a Powerstation anyway, so regardless of volume, my actual amp is always opened up a bit and my sound is mega. 

CaseOfAce

Nerine said:

CaseOfAce said:

Played an outside gig at a folk festival at the weekend. Large covered stage full PA stack either side facing onto a large courtyard with soundman in the booth at the back.

The bass player turned up with his bass stack thinking that since we were outside this was his chance to re-enact The Who at Chartlon Athletic football ground in '74.
I had my Hot Rod Deluxe on a stand behind me (to lazy to bring additional speaker but hopes of cranking the power section for once).

Soundcheck - I'm a third or so the way up on my HRD (sounds quite reasonable - loud but not punishing). No mics on the guitar or bass speakers.
IMMEDIATELY me and the bass player get told to turn down - we're drowning out the vocals. 
Friends agree.

We reluctantly do so - and get this - me and the bass player proceed to play the gig un-miced with an SM57 hanging over the drumkit and the vocals going thru the PA.
(the sound guy even turned off the DI feed from the bass player cos there was enough signal already from the stage).

I love valve amps - but it would be nice to actually do a gig where I could get the things warmed up.

I usually find my amp is turned up more in smaller venues than it is on large festival stages. 

There’s just loads more separation and isolation on big stages so the amp volume never needs to be as high, I’ve found. 

Plus, add loads of monitoring and I’m more than happy to have my guitar amp at lower volumes. I use a Powerstation anyway, so regardless of volume, my actual amp is always opened up a bit and my sound is mega. 

You're right Nerine. I was surprised - I thought playing outside I could floor it but I was actually at lower volumes for clean and drive then I would be inside. The sound just carries outside. Don't get to do too many outdoor gigs so this was a learning experience for me.

Danny1969

I've done some big outside  gigs at some hefty stage volumes. Victorious fest last year I used a Vox AC30 pretty much at full whack. Changeovers were pretty quick and as it was a big stage with the monitor engineer the wrong side of me so comms with him were impossible. So I made sure the amp was oud and the hat was in the monitor for counts and just used my stage position to get a workable mix. 

Portsmouth FA cup final winners parade in 2008 - Marshall EL34 100 / 100 turned up so loud it sounded like 3 Marshalls rather than one. I played one chord through that massive PA and it sounded like the voice of God

Most of the time I'm on ears but a few times a year it's nice to whack an amp up and feel a bit of movement for once. i've used power attenuators and it's not the same thing ... it's not that different from lowering the pre amp output before it hits the power amp.

Things can carry outside but drums lose all their liveliness as there's nothing they can reflect back on. This means the snare will sound like a dead rat falling off a roof onto a dustbin lid and the hat and cymbals will lose all the high end as they lose energy quicker than lower frequencies. The Hat mic has all you need to keep in time with the kit so get that in your monitor. 

Everyone knows you need much more than double that wattage to increase the volume just a little bit but outside that's even more so ... a little pub festival can sound loud with 2 x SRM450's and a couple of bins but double that area and now you need 20 x the power really. 

Lestratcaster

I've usually gigged with tube amps (My Peavey 6505+ 120 watt head) but the last gig I played was with my Kemper direct to FOH and using in ears. I certainly found it strange not having a physical cab behind me to push air out, and in some ways miss that power amp volume to keep up with drums. Or maybe in rehearsals with teh Kemper I wasn't EQ'ing right. I mostly play at home now so using a big ass 4x12 cab isn't necessary anymore but no doubt a tube amp reacts different to digital. I've kept the Peavey head in case, or I could use it as an actual power amp if I use a cab live.

digitalscream

monquixote said:

digitalscream said:

chrisj1602 said:

Could you tell me more about this ADA MP-1?  I have seen you mention it in the ToneX One thread, but I am not familiar with it!  

High-gain rack preamp from the late 80s, most notably used by Nuno on Pornograffiti, but also Paul Gilbert, Skid Row and White Lion. Very unique-sounding, and nothing else has ever been made that quite sounds like them.

I'm a big fan of Nembrini and I believe they do a very good emulation of one. 

Is there anything they are especially good at. Is it kind of an 80's rawk thing?

I find that - with the real thing, the profiles and Nembrini's VST - the best parts are:

- A really percussive, aggressive attack at higher gain
- That creamy sustains-forever compressed character from a lot of 80s solos
- A nice growly mid-to-high-gain rhythm tone if you're sensible with the gain

chris78

monquixote said:

chris78 said:

The argument I can never agree with is “the audience won’t notice anyway”.

Frankly, they won’t, but they also won’t notice the bum note, the bit where you messed up the solo etc. However, you’ll know you did it and you’ll also know when your tone isn’t right.

That's the opposite of what I'm saying. When I switched from a massive pedal board and expensive valve amp to an inexpensive modeller through the PA I got loads more complements on how good my tone was than I ever got before. 

I actually had similar when I gigged a POD 2.0 into a PA at a big venue VS someone else who was using an Orange stack and 4x12

I loathe Orange amps so I’m not surprised, but the point I’m really making is that the tone is for me, not for the people I’m playing with who couldn’t give two hoots.

jasonbone75

noisepolluter said:

I’d love to hear what a home/studio setup of the latest Fractal and some good monitors sounds like, especially compared to a valve head through a Waza TAE. 

Interesting that is exactly what I have. A 5150III and TAE and an FM9 - monitor speakers are old but good Mackie HR series. Since I brought the FM9 home end of last year, I haven't turned on the amp. Make of that what you will.

(Edit: caveat I guess is that I am not quite as fussy as many and as long as it sounds half decent you are going to get my best whatever the occasion)

Boromedic

digitalscream said:

chrisj1602 said:

Could you tell me more about this ADA MP-1?  I have seen you mention it in the ToneX One thread, but I am not familiar with it!  

High-gain rack preamp from the late 80s, most notably used by Nuno on Pornograffiti, but also Paul Gilbert, Skid Row and White Lion. Very unique-sounding, and nothing else has ever been made that quite sounds like them.

I think Kirk used these around the Justice era with Mesa power amps, sounded good there too

octatonic

Boromedic said:

digitalscream said:

chrisj1602 said:

Could you tell me more about this ADA MP-1?  I have seen you mention it in the ToneX One thread, but I am not familiar with it!  

High-gain rack preamp from the late 80s, most notably used by Nuno on Pornograffiti, but also Paul Gilbert, Skid Row and White Lion. Very unique-sounding, and nothing else has ever been made that quite sounds like them.

I think Kirk used these around the Justice era with Mesa power amps, sounded good there too

Yes.

There were 4 rack preamps that were popular around that time.

ADA MP1
Marshall JMP1
Mesa Triaxis
CAE 3+

Later the Bogner Fish.

I've owned the first 3 and like the ADA the most out of all of them.
I wanted to love the Triaxis but found it really noisy.
I likes the JMP1 the least.

Just had a look on t'Verb and the ADA is still up around £600.
Given Triaxes are still over a grand and the CAE and Bogner are well over £2k they are probably the one to go for.

Or just use an Axe FX III, which has all the preamp sounds you ever need.

After I sold the Triaxis I went for a Mesa Dual Rectifier Rackmount.
I stupidly sold that back in 2009- if I could find another one I'd buy it immediately.

The one I always wanted though was the Matchless preamp- there are only half a dozen or so of them about.
I think Neil Finn has one.

I don't know why more amps aren't rack mountable- it is the perfect format and they don't get damaged when in a hard/shock mounted case.

thomasw88

I love pedals/amps, but in 90's I happily gigged for years at some fairly decent venues with a yamaha G100 (solid state 2x12 amp) and a Korg A4 effects unit and an old crybaby wah.   Tbh I didn't actually know what a valve amp was at that point, but knew that I didn't like the Marshall amps at the rehearsal studio (I'm finally coming round to Marshalls now...)

Since then been down the rabbit hole. I currently have two pedal boards filled with pedals and have tried various modelers.  I've got a few shows with a band  this year, where I really want to be mobile and my pedalboards are quite heavy, so I'm hoping that my newly bought Helix is going to  do the job.    I've spend the last couple of days rewiring my pedalboard, used it at practice and thought there was something a bit odd about the tone (I suspect a cable somewhere),.. So now going to have to go through every cable replacing and checking again to see if there was a suspect or if it was my imagination... That is a pita.

Modeler wise, I'm finding so far that I prefer the helix into a real amp  than going direct FOH with the Helix,.
   The  benefit for that is that I won't have some random fecking cable dying in the middle of gig or a pedal dying, and I can setup some patches for specific songs that will make life a bit easier.  Also get the amp in the room feel from there being an amp in the room ...

This is negated by the fact that preset levelling is a dark art, and modelers do need dialing in to the room in the same way an amp/pedalboard does.  Its' not as easy to do that I find, but again that could be just where i am with getting used to a modeler
The pedals do sound better to me, but the Helix etc aren't bad, and are perfectly usable.

I've never heard a modeler in a gig and thought it sounded 'better' than a valve amp.   I've done loads of shows with bands who've used them and to me at least they don't sound a patch on the real thing.
  Maybe for  bigger gigs it's very different but in the smaller venues (with engineer etc)  that has been my experience.  Did a gig a few weeks ago, the other band on the bill had one amp and one modeler.  The modeler sound horrible, and took twice as long to dial in for the soundcheck.

 In the house and studio, I think Modelers win hands down.  Its more convenient and easier to get a nice sound.  Recording wise,  Engineers will usually  take a  guitar DI feed as well as the mic'd amp 
  Last few recordings I've done, I'm not entirely sure how much is the amp and  how much is the DI'd feed going through some software tbh.

DartmoorHedgehog

I've noticed, certainly in the past couple of years, that of my electric-guitar-playing muso friends most of the pros (as in the ones who are playing music to provide an income) seem to be using modelers (mostly Helix) direct to FOH these days.  The amateurs (who do it mostly for fun, me included) are the ones lugging real amps and speakers.

To be honest, I can't say I noticed a difference in sound of their bands when they changed (in that I only noticed when I found myself looking on stage and thinking "where's their amp?")

Sometimes I do wonder why I'm humping my valve head and 2x12 around to gigs when something like a Helix would probably sound just as good, weigh next to nothing, and costs a similar amount.  But so far I've stuck with the amp - I think partly because I just LIKE it and partly because a lot of the venues and events we play as a small local amateur band will only have vocal PA so I'd need to have some sort of decently powerful powered speaker, which partly negates the "one lightweight box" attraction (although I know a modern power amp and speaker isn't half as heavy as a valve amp+cab)

digitalscream

DartmoorHedgehog said:

Sometimes I do wonder why I'm humping my valve head and 2x12 around to gigs when something like a Helix would probably sound just as good, weigh next to nothing, and costs a similar amount. 

That's the funny part - even a fairly basic pedalboard costs about £600 these days with just a couple of drives, a couple of mods and a delay or reverb, once you factor in the power supply, board, velcro etc.

So...it's really that it costs the same as (or less than) the pedalboard, and you get your amp-esque stuff for free. Or you can keep your pedalboard, add the amp-esque stuff with a ToneX ONE for £180 and do away with the amp and cab (if you really want to).

DartmoorHedgehog

digitalscream said:

DartmoorHedgehog said:

Sometimes I do wonder why I'm humping my valve head and 2x12 around to gigs when something like a Helix would probably sound just as good, weigh next to nothing, and costs a similar amount. 

That's the funny part - even a fairly basic pedalboard costs about £600 these days with just a couple of drives, a couple of mods and a delay or reverb, once you factor in the power supply, board, velcro etc.

So...it's really that it costs the same as (or less than) the pedalboard, and you get your amp-esque stuff for free. Or you can keep your pedalboard, add the amp-esque stuff with a ToneX ONE for £180 and do away with the amp and cab (if you really want to).

True - I don't use that many pedals though, and none of them are very expensive ones.  But my pedalboard is probably £250 worth at used prices, perhaps £400 new at a rough guess.  My amp is a Rocker 30 head and open-back 2x12 - I'm a bit out of touch with values but I'd guess the amp+cab+pedals must be worth a bit over a grand, which I could get a Helix floor unit for similar money.  Rough prices, but that's why I said "costs a similar amount".  If I was in a function band or something and needed a massive pedalboard then you're right, it swings the cost factor even more in the modeler's favour.  Plus the convenience of being able to switch between patches for various songs rather than tap dancing and knob twiddling.

EDIT: OK, just did a quick check of current used prices for my pedals - I was way under-estimating it when I said £250 - looks like it would cost me more than £400 to replace them now, so we're well over a grand for the amp+cab+pedals.  That Helix is looking very good value.  But I still like my big old amp