Boss RC-2 in effects loop: auto not starting the phrase

Yorkie

I realise this is a very specialist issue. 

Got my RC-2 looper alone in the DSL40C’s effects loop. It’s infuriatingly loud regardless of master volume levels, which may or may not be related. 

The looper has this ‘auto’ mode that starts playing a rhythm and recording a phrase when I press the footswitch. It used to work fine when I had the looper going into the front of the amp, but now it just blinks as it is not detecting an input signal. It does record fine on ‘manual’ mode, but I can’t seem to manage pressing the footswitch and playing without mistakes. I wanted to use a bit of preamp drive so I need the looper after the preamp — ie in the loop. 

Any idea what could be wrong with the setup? Perhaps I should try adding a buffered pedal in front of it? 

Cheers, 
Jon

hollywoodrox

Sorry can’t help , I’ve got one too they’re a bugger , the manual isn’t much use & the rhythm when I start it & use the auto function seems to stop and start the rhythm & mess up the timing . Preferred my old digitech ones 

ICBM

It sounds like the loop level is too low - that would explain both why the looper output is too loud, and why it thinks it's not getting an input signal, because it's below the threshold necessary to trigger it.

Try turning the channel volumes up and the master volume down.

pt22

Boss Loopers have an annoying problem of defaulting to 100% loop and rhythm volume which is ear splitting. 

The only known fix from what I understand is to create a preset and save it at 30% loop & rhythm volume before you start looping. 

Or buy an RC-10r or above which have external volume knobs or sliders. 

Yorkie

ICBM said:

It sounds like the loop level is too low - that would explain both why the looper output is too loud, and why it thinks it's not getting an input signal, because it's below the threshold necessary to trigger it.

Try turning the channel volumes up and the master volume down.

That's what I suspect too, however I've got no master volume, just gain and volume. I've tried maxing out the gain and lowering the volume, and vice versa. No change. 

Another bit that's also consistent with the effects loop having too low a volume: the recorded phrases had a hum and noise that wasn't obvious in bypass mode. 

I will try putting another pedal in front of the looper when I get back (I'm in Oxford atm). I've read on the HoF's manual that it's happy in the effects loop whatever the volume. 

Jon

Yorkie

pt22 said:

Boss Loopers have an annoying problem of defaulting to 100% loop and rhythm volume which is ear splitting. 

The only known fix from what I understand is to create a preset and save it at 30% loop & rhythm volume before you start looping. 

Or buy an RC-10r or above which have external volume knobs or sliders. 

Mine does have external volume knobs. The problem is that it's practically too loud on 1. I love this looper, it was my first ever TFB purchase and it has been on my board since then. Just not in the effects loop! 

ICBM

Yorkie said:

That's what I suspect too, however I've got no master volume, just gain and volume. I've tried maxing out the gain and lowering the volume, and vice versa. No change.

The DSL40 has a gain and volume for each channel, and two overall (switchable) master volumes, no?

Turn the channel volumes up and the master volume(s) down.

Yorkie

ICBM said:

Yorkie said:

That's what I suspect too, however I've got no master volume, just gain and volume. I've tried maxing out the gain and lowering the volume, and vice versa. No change.

The DSL40 has a gain and volume for each channel, and two overall (switchable) master volumes, no?

Turn the channel volumes up and the master volume(s) down.

No, that’s the CR version. I’ve got the older C one. 

ICBM

Yorkie said:

No, that’s the CR version. I’ve got the older C one. 

Ah… that’s a pain.

In that case you need something like a volume pedal, or an ‘anti-boost’ (passive volume control in a box - I think @Danny1969 makes them) to put after the RC-2. That will let you turn up the amp's volume controls, then the final level down (including the RC-2 rhythm sounds) with the volume box. 

Yorkie

ICBM said:
Ah… that’s a pain.

Yes and no. I paid £200 for it and aside from this little annoyance we're in perfect sync. 

In that case you need something like a volume pedal, or an ‘anti-boost’ (passive volume control in a box - I think @Danny1969 makes them) to put after the RC-2. That will let you turn up the amp's volume controls, then the final level down (including the RC-2 rhythm sounds) with the volume box. 

I've breadboarded it and yes, it does reduce rhythm volume and it does allow me to crank it to 10, auto function kicks in, etc. Problem is, the guitar overdubs are pretty noisy, probably because the signal is coming at a much lower level than the looper is expecting. And I'm playing my tele build, which I have meticulously shielded and in normal conditions is practically noiseless. 

 Are there any other loopers with built-in rhythm boxes which might be happy in Marshall's quiet FX loop? My TC stuff has on occasion gone in the loop with no problems, but I'm not sure how their Ditto thingy compares against the RC-2. I'd be keeping the RC-2 anyway – it's a killer practice tool and I can still use it downstairs with the AC15. 

Yorkie

I think the fx loop’s level is definitely tied to the master volume. 

Apologies if this is obvious to everyone else, my experience with fx loops is confined to plugging delays and reverbs. 

Yorkie

Once again apologies because this stuff is probably fx loop 101 to you all – I'm just leaving this here in case some other newbie falls into the same 'trap'. 

Here is small but relevant extract of the DSL40C schematic, captured from an image search engine. From left to right, we've got EQ section, then in and out to the (digital) Reverb, then Volume – so it's NOT really a master volume – and then FX in and out, which then goes into PREAMP_OUTPUT.
 

So, this schematic explains why:

- input signal to the looper is very low at recording levels (volume=1-2), which means loops and overdubs register some hiss.
- you can only control the volume of the built-in rhythm box using the looper's controls. VOLUME does not affect it, because the drums are separate from the input. 
- playing doesn't trigger the start of a phrase at recording levels because the FX loop is quiet.
- turning gain down and volume up does cure the issue
- adding a passive volume box after the looper allows you to crank both gain and volume if you need to, and keeps the looper happy. 
- if you added a tremolo box in the FX loop, you would be using the tremolo after the amp's reverb, Fender style.

I love both the DSL40C and the Boss RC-2, so I'm going to get my soldering iron out and build a little volume box :-)

Thanks for your help, everyone and particularly John who's always spot on.

Jon

Yorkie

So I’ve ended up making a new box that aims to solve three of my problems: 

- The effects loop volume issue we have diagnosed here. 
- Except for the tuner, I don’t normally use pedals; my pedalboard doesn’t have any leds on when the pedals are off, so I frequently forget to turn the whole thing off. 

- I have two amps I usually record with, and I didn’t have an AB switch. 

The result: 

Been practicing with the looper for hours. It works, it works, it works!!!

ICBM

Great result! Happy to have helped .

Yorkie

ICBM said:

Great result! Happy to have helped .

You are also the reason I used plastic jack sockets for the effects loop… there was an old thread about joining front and fx loop grounds where you advised against doing it because it could create a ground loop. So I have kept the grounds separate :-)

Jon