Nylon String Conundrum

SimonC

After watching Eric Haugens YouTube video on why you need a nylon string guitar, GAS has struck and I’ve decided I need one.

So far my shortlist is 
Taylor Academy 12n
Yamaha NCX1 or NTX1
Cordoba C5 crossover 

Nearly all nylon strings I fancy in this sort of range seem to be equipped with some sort of preamp / pickup system which I don’t really need as it would really just be a couch guitar.
I don’t have a dedicated acoustic amp, (just a Princeton), and don’t want to go to any further expense to get one.

Are there better, purely acoustic models, that would give more guitar for the money, rather than forking out for electronics I don’t need?

drofluf

I think that the "crossover" is quite a small niche with limited demand so most manufacturers will include a pick up to maximise their market.

Tannin

Just buy one you like, regardless of whether it has electronics or not.

* Properly fitted electronics make no difference to the acoustic sound. 

* Electronics make no difference to the price of a mass-produced guitar. Yes, it costs some money to add them, but far, far less that it costs to buy a third-party pickup and fit it yourself. Companies like Taylor and Yamaha (which also owns Cordoba and Guild) either make their own pickups at low cost or else drive very hard bargains to buy in thousands of units at ultra-low prices. The small extra cost of the pickup is less than the significant extra cost of the duplication and supply-chain congestion which results from having two different models, one with pickup, one without. Given that most retail buyers (and all buyers with much of a clue) either want a pickup or don't care either way, it works out cheaper for (e.g.) Taylor to make a single, one-size-fits-all pickup-included model. 

(Note 1: Do you sometimes see very-bottom-of-the-range guitars from makers who normally fit pickups selling cheaper? Sure you do. But the deletion of the pickup isn't so much to save money as it is to have some point of difference from the better models. Often these are loss-leaders.)

(Note 2: Do some people actually prefer a guitar with no electronics? Yes, but worldwide these are very, very few. Only in the UK is it actually a thing. No-one knows why. The rest of the world's guitar buyers overwhelmingly prefer a pickup, or else don't care.)

(Note 3: Personally, I'd just as soon not have electronics. I practically never use a pick-up, but I have never let that mild dislike get between me and a guitar I like. As a result, 5 of my guitars have best-in-class pickups which I don't use. Of the other four, three were custom-made than the fourth was made back in the days before pickups became standard.)

(Note 4: If you aren't going to use the pickup, take the battery out! Otherwise, one year or another, the battery will leak and that's not nice at all. If you ever want to use the pick-up you can pop a fresh battery in at that time, and remember to take it out again afterwards.)

(Note 5: There is no Note 5.)

SimonC

Well I’m not fully committed to the idea of a crossover, I’m sure I could adapt.
I suppose I’m just asking the eternal “is there a better guitar for the money” question.

Funnily enough, Taylor do make the Academy 12n with and without a pickup, but the electronic model can often be found cheaper than the fully acoustic - go figure?

ESBlonde

The sound of many nylon strung guitars via a pickup will sound fairly adequate in a decent clean guitar amp. The enhanced top end in 'acoustic' style amps is often via a horn and designed to give that steel string zing which we don't tend to require with nylon strings plucked with fingers.
Will it sound better in a PA or acoustic amp? Yes, but it will function well enough in your regular amp.

Tannin

Interesting @ESBlonde - I didn't know that. (What practical use it could ever be to me as a purely acoustic player I don't know - but it never hurts to learn something new.)

Tannin

Oh, and having said I'm a purely acoustic player with zero interest in pickups, the other month I visited some new friends and one thing led to another. We wound up having an all-evening jam, me on acoustic guitar (with pickup switched on, though I had to borrow a battery for it!) one chap on drums, and the other doing vocals and swapping between electric lead and bass. We had a ball, and considering that I hadn't played in any sort of ensemble since my bass-playing days in the 1980s, made a pretty decent sound. It was a bit scary suddenly being the guitarist (in the old days I used to sing and only play 2nd guitar or bass) but scary-good. 

Anyway, the point is, having a pickup might just come in handy one day @SimonC.

MartinB

Are you looking for a "crossover" instrument with a narrower neck then would suit steel string or electric players, or is a more conventional classical guitar with the traditional wide neck profile also acceptable to you?

There are some quite likeable classical guitars in the price range you're looking at, often Spanish made. There are a number of different names, but you typically have to look in more classical guitar focused retailers.

BillDL

If I was looking to buy a standard shaped non-electric classical guitar for somewhere around the £500 to £600 mark the Cordoba C7 with cedar top would be at the top of my shortlist even though it falls a bit short of the budget.  I would buy a hard foam case for it with the remaining money.  I usually prefer the sound of a cedar soundboard on a classical to spruce, but it depends on the guitar and the strings.  That guitar has solid cedar soundboard, laminated Indian Rosewood back and sides, and rosewood fretboard.  It comes with Savarez "Cristal" High Tension strings, so you know it will be capable of taking the tension, and it has a truss rod that allows you to make corrections where many clasical guitars don't.  I like the feel and snappier sound of higher than "normal"  tension strings, and in combination with a "warmer" sound from the cedar top I think it's a well balanced tone.

If I had a higher budget I would be inclined to go for the all solid wood C9 with cedar top and mahogany back and sides that comes with a hardfoam case.

I do have a soft spot for Cordoba guitars. I own two and have played quite a few.  They are very well made and well priced, being made in China (no, don't start on about slave labour or low wages), and sound really good.

sev112

Dowina seem to do a highly popular one that gets lots of plaudits and you are definitely getting value for money there 

ICBM

Whereabouts in Scotland are you? I have a Manuel Raimundo classical with an unusually thin neck (front-to-back - the width is normal, but it feels narrower because of that) which I have been thinking of selling... all-solid, cedar top and walnut back and sides (also unusual) - it's really nice, but I just don't play classical guitar and it's somewhat wasted on me. If I do sell it, it will be within your budget.

Tannin

BillDL said:

I do have a soft spot for Cordoba guitars. I own two and have played quite a few.  They are very well made and well priced, being made in China (no, don't start on about slave labour or low wages), and sound really good.

Cordoba guitars are made in multiple countries around the world, not just China. If I remember correctly, these include Spain, the USA (a small number only), China and .... er ... can't remember the other place. They have quite a complex organisational structure.

hassleham

A "proper" spanish classical guitar will give you a much nicer instrument rather than buying a mass produced crossover model by a mainstream brand IMO. Ramirez etc.

Winny_Pooh

Maybe try one out first, I've been slowly considering one for a few months (been playing a selmer style alot during that time) happened to have a nice one in the house that I bought on behalf of a friend and didn't gel with it at all.

BillDL

Tannin said:

BillDL said:

I do have a soft spot for Cordoba guitars. I own two and have played quite a few.  They are very well made and well priced, being made in China (no, don't start on about slave labour or low wages), and sound really good.

Cordoba guitars are made in multiple countries around the world, not just China. If I remember correctly, these include Spain, the USA (a small number only), China and .... er ... can't remember the other place. They have quite a complex organisational structure.

It's not really that complex. Although headquartered in California where the brand started, Cordoba Guitars is now under the Yamaha Corporation's group of brands. The guitars within the OP's budget and those a fair bit higher in price are all made in China, as is very common with most brands of guitars these days. The ones made in Spain and America are well outwith the OP's budget.  It's unfortunate that "Cordoba" seems to have become synonymous with "Crossover Nylon String", because they make some very good "proper" classical guitars in traditional Spanish style.

SimonC

ICBM said:

Whereabouts in Scotland are you? I have a Manuel Raimundo classical with an unusually thin neck (front-to-back - the width is normal, but it feels narrower because of that) which I have been thinking of selling... all-solid, cedar top and walnut back and sides (also unusual) - it's really nice, but I just don't play classical guitar and it's somewhat wasted on me. If I do sell it, it will be within your budget.

Thanks @ICBM I’m in D&G, so pretty well out in the sticks.
The more I think about it, the more I’m now leaning to a nice proper classical guitar rather than a crossover type.

I’ve got some bits of gear to move on first to raise funds, but I’d definitely consider something like your Raimundo when the time comes

Timcito

hassleham said:

A "proper" spanish classical guitar will give you a much nicer instrument rather than buying a mass produced crossover model by a mainstream brand IMO. Ramirez etc.

This is true, but can we live with that wide nut width? From time to time, I've thought, 'Screw it, I need the great sound of a pure classical guitar, only to sell it somewhere down the line because of playability.

I also like to have a truss rod. Even if I never use it, I like the reassurance of one being there.

hassleham

@Timcito ;;;

I started learning classical and then gravitated to electric/acoustic so I guess my opinion is biased.. Perhaps i’m also used to the wide nut so it doesn’t bother me, but equally I never found electric or acoustic necks to feel narrow. I would never perform classical pieces on a guitar with a narrow (electric/acoustic sized) nut either.

Also have never owned a classical guitar that needed a truss rod. All adjustment done at the bridge saddle and nut, along with selecting correct string tension.

I’ve been looking at the La Patrie arena as a possible new electro classical for me. I hadn’t checked before your reply but it turns out it has a truss rod and 24” radius like a steel string. So i guess that would feel more like an acoustic guitar to play, despite still having a classical sized nut. I haven’t managed to try one yet so can’t judge. Have read good things though!

Timcito

hassleham said:

@Timcito ;;;;;

I started learning classical and then gravitated to electric/acoustic so I guess my opinion is biased.. Perhaps i’m also used to the wide nut so it doesn’t bother me, but equally I never found electric or acoustic necks to feel narrow. I would never perform classical pieces on a guitar with a narrow (electric/acoustic sized) nut either.

Also have never owned a classical guitar that needed a truss rod. All adjustment done at the bridge saddle and nut, along with selecting correct string tension.

I’ve been looking at the La Patrie arena as a possible new electro classical for me. I hadn’t checked before your reply but it turns out it has a truss rod and 24” radius like a steel string. So i guess that would feel more like an acoustic guitar to play, despite still having a classical sized nut. I haven’t managed to try one yet so can’t judge. Have read good things though!

I've looked at the La Patrie Arena series, too. They're very appealing, and I like the look of the slimmer profile. But as you say, they do have 2" at the nut, which makes the thumb wrap pretty challenging for me. 

I've owned a couple of Taylor NS models - the 72 and the 42 - and while their playability suits me, with 1 7/8" at the nut, their acoustic sound was a little weak. They were also quite expensive, as are their present-day incarnations.