I feel Crushed and Stupid..I thought I was starting to sound quite Jazzy..

KevS

You think you have studied guitar for the last 38 years,,learned about chord construction harmony,scales etc....Then you get told you should understand drop 2 and 3 voicings inside out.So is that 4 forms for a Tetrachord on each 4 String group..then the drop 2 and 3 forms..So is that 36 forms of E minor 7th and every other chord form..This seems impossible..Maybe I misunderstand..Maybe the explanation was bad,,more likely that my brain is tiny....I should learn all of Barry Harris's concepts and be able to be able to thoroughly understand and use Lydian Chromatic Concepts and apply them fluently,,before starting to learn Jazz....I should then apply it. to lots of Jazz Standards..I should learn lots of them..,,..I am overwhelmed and put off trying any further,I will never be a fluent Jazz Guitarist....I know the modes of the Melodic Minor etc..Apparently learning them was a waste of time as they are not musical,,I use sequential patterns.. and I should be inverting arpeggios with enclosures..I can do this a bit,,but all of those inversions..I can't remember all of that stuff....

I don't have enough hours in the day,energy in my arms, never mind possible time left on the Planet to learn to become a fluent Jazz Guitarist it seems..I certainly don't have a big enough brain to store it....I feel Crushed....I can improvise on Rock and Blues..I can even. get pretty Jazzy with Blues.I practiced stuff like phrasing,,vibrato and bends,,feel..groove,,obviously good timing and rhythm.... etc.I can hear changes in tonality,,Key etc....I thought I understood a good amount..I understand about intervals..While explaining one concept,,people online seem to throw in another few to completely confuse you..It only seems to happen with Jazz lessons..I learned about substitutions,but they seem to know about ones that to me don't make sense,,but are apparently standard..I understand Tritone Substitution and iii and vi for I and vii for V....I understand triad stacking and chord embellishment..I have ....

I feel truly discouraged..I am 56,,I feel like I will be dead before I can play Jazz fluently properly..So I feel what is the point in trying anymore..I feel well and truly beaten..I do know the standard versions of altered 9ths etc,but they are apparently the boring vanilla versions..Using them makes me a novice..I honestly feel a barrier between me and my guitar right now..I feel like I am Crap....I am bad for beating myself up and then going on a downer...I don't really want to pick up my guitar right now..I was just trying to advance again on it..

Can anybody give me hope..Do you really need to know all this to play and understand Jazz properly..

relic245

I think what you need might be a good teacher...

That doesn't mean someone who is an amazing guitarist but someone who knows enough.

More importantly, someone who can understand YOU where you are, where you want to be, and can design a route to get you there 

I bet Miles Davis' level of music theory was fairly low but he did ok.

There are a lot of wankers around.

It's like doctors use to speak in Latin because it made them feel superior to everyone else, there are a lot of musicians who have a personality defect and need to feel that they are superior to others.

One way of doing that is speaking diminished this and flat augmented bollox.

I'm sure a level of theory is a good thing but surely more so is being able to hear in your head what you want to play and then to be able to translate that into your fingers.

My 2 cents is that while you're playing you're probably better of listening rather than thinking.

Don't give up mate. Find you're own level and enjoy it . Every one else can go and do one.

I'm off now to go and listen to my own advice!

drofluf

I couldn’t claim to understand a tenth of what you said up there but who is telling you that you need to know 36 forms of each chord? I’m a relative beginner but it seems that you need to know the chord that sounds right and flows easily?

ElectricXII

For me, a lot of the more esoteric types of jazz, which require a lot from the listener and the player, are complete bollocks, so I would concentrate on playing what you like to listen to, rather than aspiring to play very niche stuff which requires superhuman skills. Unless of course you love the complicated, weird suff and absolutely have to play it.

darthed1981

Sounds like you have achieved a lot.

I'm probably not qualified to comment (I think most Jazz is tuneless wank and I'm perfectly happy with playing my indie rock songs) but surely what you are doing is building a toolbox to add to your playing over time. 

Nobody knows it all, nobody is perfect, so why not try to enjoy what you have achieved, and add to it as time and nature allows, and not worry about a diffuse end-goal that nobody ever really reaches anyway?

KevS

drofluf said:

I couldn’t claim to understand a tenth of what you said up there but who is telling you that you need to know 36 forms of each chord? I’m a relative beginner but it seems that you need to know the chord that sounds right and flows easily?

Some Jazz lesson stuff on Youtube..People keep mentioning drop 2 and 3 voicing,,so I thought I would investigate so I could understand what they are trying to teach rather than going on intuition...It seems these are not just inversions..Or the way it was explained they are not like first,second,third inversions..My brain can get overwhelmed and panic..I understand inversions,but these seem to be different..People on Youtube can overcomplicate and sidetrack..I am never good when this happens..I get muddled..I think there is maybe something a little faulty in my wiring..People seem to complicate things and add in the kitchen sink and what they had for dinner..Well not really,but they distract me..

You are right in what you say about chords flowing right..That is another one,,Voice leading..I understand the concept,but it is another thing to study..It is basically what chord sounds and flows right..Although sometimes contrasting chords can sound great..

KevS

I like Early Herbie Hancock,actually thinking about it his Funk stuff too..Coltrane up to and Including Love Supreme..Miles from about 57 to maybe 64..Dexter Gordon,,Kenny Burrell,some Grant Green,,Hank Mobley..Horace Silver etc..So I guess Hard Bop and Modal..Oh !! I like Dave Brubeck too and some Bossa Stuff too...Not sure if this stuff comes under tuneless Wank..lol..It may be to some folk..I love the groove and expression involved..Free form is not my thing..
Monk ,Round Midnight is slow expressive Wank..Astrud Gilberto is Latin Minge Manipulation..

I like Caravan and Gong etc too..Cool rhythms and Jazzy Psychedelic stuff..I think for me my interest in Jazz came from the Byrds Eight Miles High Intro..I thought it sounded totally Psychedelic..He said it was Influenced by Coltrane..The first Coltrane I heard was a track called Out of This World.. I wasn't disappointed..I bought it on LP and took it home and put it on the turntable,,this was pre internet and compact dis was still for rich people..lol...Others may find it Tuneless Wank of course...I think often Music Chooses us rather than us choosing it..I love all the variation in Coltranes phrasing and the expression involved..Some people I have played it for hate it..



I do hear some Jazzy chords in 80's Indie,,although more Major ones..Marr and David Gavurin like their Major 7th's,,Robin Guthrie too..

This may be less Wankful and Tuneless..It's on guitar too..

I love the groove...You may even not hate this..



The Jazz Stuff I would like to play is maybe more stuff I could Jam with others..
Although not with elitist tossers..I know there is a Jazz Jam in my city,,but I wouldn't dare go to it..




 

drofluf

Just heard Lætitia Sadier (Stereolab) interviewed on the radio. A quote:

”I just need one jazz chord and I’m happy”. 

viz

At your age I’d definitely continue approaching jazz with a cheater’s attitude. There are loads of short cuts that make your playing sound jazzier, and also help you interpret and play along to actual jazz. Like:

Recognising 251s and stopping playing 451 over them

^ also the 6251, and even the 36251, for jazz blues. 

Listening out for and mastering the altered chord and altered scale, over the V chord. Even mini-licks that work - even the odd single note over the V can sound like instant jazz. 

Learning how to clump mini-progressions together in your brain (they’re often 251s) and seeing how they all join up. This helps you navigate around longer jazz progressions. 

Finding your way around the tritone substitution. 

Getting the swing groove in your brain and fingers. 

And yes, potentially these voicings and inversions can help - but they’re not necessary for sounding jazzy and require a lot of rewiring of your fingering and playing style. Like you say, you may have done a lot of this. 

A lot of other jazz is actual lite classical music and can be explained by simple classical functional harmony.

Maybe find a teacher to see what you want to achieve, and where you are, and give you some nudges for the next stage of your journey, then it sounds like you can take that a looooong way further on your own.

CaseOfAce

KevS said:

Although not with elitist tossers..I know there is a Jazz Jam in my city,,but I wouldn't dare go to it..

why do you need to know all the stuff you posted about drop 2 this and lydian chromatic that?!

I'm not a jazzer but if was so inclined  i'd learn a few dozen standards (or go along to the club to get an idea of the songs they do play|), learn the basic chords, changes and a working knowledge of the major scale / modes - use a looper at home - get reasonably proficient and then hit the clubs and play.

Just because I can't blow the changes to Giant Steps at 250bpm with a beard and man bun in Ab I don't see why that would preclude me from playing the music I love right?!

Bro jazz - just say no kids.

munckee

Have a beer, turn your amp up, play some Who. Laugh at the wankers.  

Sporky

I have a question, which may sound silly.

Do you actually want to play jazz, or do you want to incorporate some jazz-adjacent elements into your playing (which it sounds like you've already done)?

And what's the balance for you between intellectual interest and musical need?

KevS

viz said:

At your age I’d definitely approach jazz with a cheater’s attitude. There are loads of short cuts that make your playing sound jazzier, and also help you interpret and play along to actual jazz. Like:

Recognising 251s and stopping playing 451 over them

^ also the 6251, and even the 36251, for jazz blues. 

Listening out for and mastering the altered chord and altered scale, over the V chord. Even mini-licks that work - even the odd single note over the V can sound like instant jazz. 

Learning how to clump mini-progressions together in your brain (they’re often 251s) and seeing how they all join up. This helps you navigate around longer jazz progressions. 

Finding your way around the tritone substitution. 

Getting the swing groove in your brain and fingers. 

And yes, potentially these voicings and inversions can help - but they’re not necessary for sounding jazzy and require a lot of rewiring of your fingering and playing style. 

A lot of other jazz is actual lite classical music and can be explained by simple classical functional harmony.

Get a teacher to point these things out for you, show you the way. You can then take those learnings a looooong way further

I know a lot of this stuff,,and can swing,but the explanations of Drop 2 and 3 confuse me because people wander off onto other voicings or other things entirely..Unless there are actually 12 Drop 2 and 12 Drop 3 voicings..,The Lydian Chromatic thing would take a lot of practice to sink in to my playing..I can play Jazzy.,but I am not fluent in genuine Jazz playing...I can hear where Super Locrian and Lydian Dominant go by ear,,they are a tritone apart..I understand tritone substitution.Plus altered Ninths.....Phrygian Dominant change by ear too...Chord construction from the Major Scale and all it's modes..Lot's from the Harmonic Minor and Melodic Minor ascending chords..Embellishment,,Substitution etc...I can fake Jazz from that...I am not playing it fluently though and it seems I am only touching the surface..It seems to truly understand it,,you must study Barry Harris and be fluent with the Lydian Chromatic Approach..Apparently how Miles,,Coltrane and all those players understood Jazz..I have a Hell of a lot to learn..I understand Music Theory pretty well..I am weak on the Diminished Octatonic scale..Well I know the scale,but applying it..playing it before the chord it resolves to I get with my ear..As I said,,I've been playing 38 years..

The drop 2 and 3 things is how they describe things in the lessons..I can't find a simple explanation..It is either people showing off or people going off topic...The Barry Harris Stuff with Diminished 7ths is apparently important to..I sort of understand it,,,Tonic,,,Diminished 7,,,first inversion,,,diminished 7,,,second inversion,,,Diminished 7th,,,Third Inversion,,,Diminished 7th..The Tonic Chord inverting itself and the Diminished chord inverting in Minor Thirds too...This also creates a scale..How to apply it isn't so easy..

Brad

@kevS from everything you’ve outlined in that first post there seems to be one glaring omission…

Transcribing

The act of learning and playing solos contextualises everything, develops phrases, swing/groove and melodic direction. It’s what ALL the greats did. 

I’ve really got into trombone players recently. There’s a direct simplicity to their playing that sax, trumpet and certainly guitarists can often lack. I recently transcribed this Jazz/Blues in C from The George Benson Cookbook. Just the first trombone solo, George’s comping and his solo. So much good stuff in this one and deals with a lot of concepts you describe in your first post. 

 https://www.soundslice.com/slices/npD2c/?from=search 

viz

Drop 2 voicing is just 2nd inversion. Drop 3 voicing is 1st inversion. (because the thing you drop is counted downwards from the 7th, not upwards from the root, like in inversions)

digitalkettle

It's a Confucius quote (or maybe Abraham Lincoln): "You can still build something cool even if you haven't bought 'all the tools' yet.".

Littlejonny

KevS said:

You think you have studied guitar for the last 38 years,,learned about chord construction harmony,scales etc....Then you get told you should understand drop 2 and 3 voicings inside out.So is that 4 forms for a Tetrachord on each 4 String group..then the drop 2 and 3 forms..So is that 36 forms of E minor 7th and every other chord form..This seems impossible..Maybe I misunderstand..Maybe the explanation was bad,,more likely that my brain is tiny....I should learn all of Barry Harris's concepts and be able to be able to thoroughly understand and use Lydian Chromatic Concepts and apply them fluently,,before starting to learn Jazz....I should then apply it. to lots of Jazz Standards..I should learn lots of them..,,..I am overwhelmed and put off trying any further,I will never be a fluent Jazz Guitarist....I know the modes of the Melodic Minor etc..Apparently learning them was a waste of time as they are not musical,,I use sequential patterns.. and I should be inverting arpeggios with enclosures..I can do this a bit,,but all of those inversions..I can't remember all of that stuff....

I don't have enough hours in the day,energy in my arms, never mind possible time left on the Planet to learn to become a fluent Jazz Guitarist it seems..I certainly don't have a big enough brain to store it....I feel Crushed....I can improvise on Rock and Blues..I can even. get pretty Jazzy with Blues.I practiced stuff like phrasing,,vibrato and bends,,feel..groove,,obviously good timing and rhythm.... etc.I can hear changes in tonality,,Key etc....I thought I understood a good amount..I understand about intervals..While explaining one concept,,people online seem to throw in another few to completely confuse you..It only seems to happen with Jazz lessons..I learned about substitutions,but they seem to know about ones that to me don't make sense,,but are apparently standard..I understand Tritone Substitution and iii and vi for I and vii for V....I understand triad stacking and chord embellishment..I have ....

I feel truly discouraged..I am 56,,I feel like I will be dead before I can play Jazz fluently properly..So I feel what is the point in trying anymore..I feel well and truly beaten..I do know the standard versions of altered 9ths etc,but they are apparently the boring vanilla versions..Using them makes me a novice..I honestly feel a barrier between me and my guitar right now..I feel like I am Crap....I am bad for beating myself up and then going on a downer...I don't really want to pick up my guitar right now..I was just trying to advance again on it..

Can anybody give me hope..Do you really need to know all this to play and understand Jazz properly..

OMG…totally!! I’ve been through this and found myself again and lost and found myself again. 

The answer is: STOP looking at YouTube lessons. These are people who studied jazz at university, probably to Masters, even PHD level. They have massive brains and all the time in the world to practice. 

They get up in the morning and make themselves a coffee listening to whatever they want to and practice all day before working on their latest YouTube video, WHY YOU SHOULD KNOW ALL STANDARDS IN ALL KEYS which presents you with exactly why they are great and you are shit.

while they are doing this, you are dealing with the day to day challenges of a life that puts other people before yourself

Get yourself to a good teacher. A good teacher will make you feel better about what you’ve accomplished (which is a great deal) and help you find a way in. 

As mentioned above, many of the great jazz musicians didn’t know a drop 2 chord from a tritone substitution. I think they thought the way you probably do with rock and blues ie. Instinctively- it sounds good when I do this on this bit of the song…

also, jazz is NOT theory, it’s a huge repertoire of American music in which people improvise around the melody

ive found my way in is actually swing and Gypsy…1930s and 1940s stuff…playing the chords with movement and picking up bits of Charlie Christian etc. it seems to be working at the moment in that I’m actually enjoying it…the process of gradually sounding more authentic 

viz

KevS said:


Jazz playing...I can hear where Super Locrian and Lydian Dominant go by ear, they are a tritone apart..

They do happen to be a tritone apart, but that's not how they're used in jazz - those modes of the melodic minor aren't necessarily used diatonically. For example, you might play Lydian Dominant as your tonic, and Super Locrian on the Dominant. (the parent melodic minor scales would be G minor and Ab minor).

So it's not like harmonic minor where the 1st mode is played on, say A minor, and phrygian dominant is played on the E7. That's all staying diatonically true to the parent scale.

KevS

Sporky said:

I have a question, which may sound silly.

Do you actually want to play jazz, or do you want to incorporate some jazz-adjacent elements into your playing (which it sounds like you've already done)?

And what's the balance for you between intellectual interest and musical need?

Definitely not a silly question,,one I had to ask myself..

I genuinely would like to be able to play Jazz..I have elements of it in my playing through liking the music and tonalities..Or Hard Bop and Modal I listen to..Bossa too....I understand a good bit of the theory but I am so far from a genuine Jazz Player..I more play a sort of perverted Blues with Jazz Subs in there..It seems like I have so much to learn having to know so many inversions etc.I had no idea but apparently to voice lead,,you need to know at least 4 forms of a chord on each 4 string,string group......I also don't want to be a Clone,,I don't really like a lot of Jazz guitar players if they don't have feel....I thought because I have a pretty firm grip of harmony etc..To get into it properly wouldn't require so much more to learn...Also all of the inversions of arpeggios to learn..Again I only know 2  forms when it comes to Altered Chords not 4 on each string group..So 12 inversions..What of the drop 2 and 3 forms you are meant to know..I find this all pretty daunting..

greejn

Keep it simple. Robin Nolan material on YouTube could be very useful. The best thing would be to join a band playing standards, learn the tune and memorize the chords.

KevS

viz said:

KevS said:


Jazz playing...I can hear where Super Locrian and Lydian Dominant go by ear, they are a tritone apart..

They do happen to be a tritone apart, but that's not how they're used in jazz - those modes of the melodic minor aren't necessarily used diatonically. For example, you might play Lydian Dominant as your tonic, and Super Locrian on the Dominant. (the parent melodic minor scales would be G minor and Ab minor).

So it's not like harmonic minor where the 1st mode is played on, say A minor, and phrygian dominant is played on the E7. That's all staying diatonically true to the parent scale.

I find it easier to locate the Super Locrian by playing the Lydian Dominant a half step above the tonic if the V chord is Altered..
Why the Lydian Dominant and Super Locrian being a Tritone apart matters to me..Moving a Half step below the Melodic Minor on the 6th string is a big jump..Fe Melodic Minor / E Super Locrian...Doing that using the 5th string as a root..Would still be out of position..So the half step up method,that I came up with makes sense to me as home base..Maybe not to others though..I'm sure many others came up with the same way of understanding at least 7 decades before me...

If it works and you understand why..I think all is good..