Looping improv with explanation of my process.

octatonic

Wasn't sure if I should put this in FX or here?

I was messing about with the LVX and the Hexe reVolver IV earlier and talked through the process of creating background texture parts for my band's FB group ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/oddfoxfans if you want to join ).

Foxes are a 5 piece band with a prominent lead instrument (violin) and another guitarist. I have to find ways to compose parts that fit the band aesthetic without getting in the way of the other instruments.

A lot of the time when I see people using looper they are used to create static loops that are overdubbed to layer up parts that someone then sings or solos over.

I never liked that approach, I mean it is fine for others to work that way but it never really appealed to me and esp when playing with other people it can turn into a train wreck if you are 32nd note out with your loop selection.

So creating background, pitch shifted, filtered and bitcrushed textures was something I preferred to do- I got a lot of this from listening to guitarists such as David Torn, Brill Frisell and Robert Fripp and amalgamated their various approaches into something that, hopefully, sounds like me. 

Anyyyhoooo... here it is.

hollywoodrox

Very interesting , is that one of those copies of a famous studio Tri Chorus above your H90 on the pedal board , I really love those ones. Actually looking again it has led displays so is probably the delay . Very good 

octatonic

hollywoodrox said:

Very interesting , is that one of those copies of a famous studio Tri Chorus above your H90 on the pedal board , I really love those ones. Actually looking again it has led displays so is probably the delay . Very good 

That is a Free The Tone Flight Time.
It is a delay pedal, but styled on the 80's rack gear.

It is my short delay.
I only use one preset for that- I just switch the delay level and subdivision when switching patches on the G3S.

hollywoodrox

octatonic said:

hollywoodrox said:

Very interesting , is that one of those copies of a famous studio Tri Chorus above your H90 on the pedal board , I really love those ones. Actually looking again it has led displays so is probably the delay . Very good 

That is a Free The Tone Flight Time.
It is a delay pedal, but styled on the 80's rack gear.

It is my short delay.
I only use one preset for that- I just switch the delay level and subdivision when switching patches on the G3S.

Free the tone stuff always sounds amazing 

stickyfiddle

Finally got back to this after clicking on it and getting distracted..

Fab stuff going on there and very much the sort of thing I enjoy. I ought to get my head around the H90 better, and probably also get a better looping solution over my current MXR Clone which is super limited

Kurtis

Going to give this a proper look tonight, I mainly play at home with a looper and always trying to find interesting things to do with it.
I like experimenting with fx that stutter or swell or delay etc.

What do you mean by not liking "static" loops?
I only have a basic single button looper so can't save different sections or anything more complicated really. I do technically have two loopers, although one is also my "tape" type delay that I like.

LionAquaLooper

That's awesome.  I use a similar approach sometimes, using my Boss SY200 to create swells, pad sounds, etc textures first with no semblance of any chord progression.  My rig isn't as grand as yours so I have to make do with the SY200 (which is quite powerful already, esp with an expression pedal).  

A lot of people at this stage would overdub chords and bassline but I've done that so many times so I now overdub a melody before any chords or underlying bass progression.  What I then do while textures and melody is playing is I play the chords live (outside the loops).  I've fuond this approach much more liberating because I can take the tune in a number of directions just by changing the chord progressions (like moving from verse to chorus), whereas looping chord progressions first  and then singing/soloing on top, I'm limited to the chords that are "trapped in the loop".  

octatonic

Kurtis said:

Going to give this a proper look tonight, I mainly play at home with a looper and always trying to find interesting things to do with it.
I like experimenting with fx that stutter or swell or delay etc.

What do you mean by not liking "static" loops?
I only have a basic single button looper so can't save different sections or anything more complicated really. I do technically have two loopers, although one is also my "tape" type delay that I like.

A static loop is a loop that is a sample that repeats over and over, essentially the same.
My approach to looping is to manipulate the loops in a number of ways after they have been sampled.
In the example above it goes through an evolving LPF, so it is never the same each time.
It is more 'organic' and creative IMHO.

Kurtis

Yeah, get you now, thanks. 

Going to have to think about what I can do with the handful of pedals I have now. Nothing like your set up, but should be able to figure something interesting out.

octatonic

LionAquaLooper said:

That's awesome.  I use a similar approach sometimes, using my Boss SY200 to create swells, pad sounds, etc textures first with no semblance of any chord progression.  My rig isn't as grand as yours so I have to make do with the SY200 (which is quite powerful already, esp with an expression pedal).  

A lot of people at this stage would overdub chords and bassline but I've done that so many times so I now overdub a melody before any chords or underlying bass progression.  What I then do while textures and melody is playing is I play the chords live (outside the loops).  I've fuond this approach much more liberating because I can take the tune in a number of directions just by changing the chord progressions (like moving from verse to chorus), whereas looping chord progressions first  and then singing/soloing on top, I'm limited to the chords that are "trapped in the loop".  

I think in terms of 'part'.
As in I write a part that fits the song.

I play in a band with 4 other people- I don't need to build up a bassline, chord progression, melodic top line etc.
There is a bassist, other guitarist and violinist (plus a drummer) who can all do that.

For me these loops are sonic/textural compositions that augment the songs we write and perform together.

octatonic

Kurtis said:

Yeah, get you now, thanks. 

Going to have to think about what I can do with the handful of pedals I have now. Nothing like your set up, but should be able to figure something interesting out.

It is mostly how I approach it that i was going into.
The gear is somewhat immaterial.

This is probably the simplest looping rig I've had though.
When I was using the Gibson/Oberheim Echoplex looper I had a lot more capability, but it was a lot more set up, bigger pedalboard etc.

A lot of loopers make the half speed and reverse difficult to access, which is a total pain in the ass.

The Line 6 DL4 was an excellent creative looper with both these accessible.
The MK II is even better.

Kurtis

octatonic said:

Kurtis said:

Yeah, get you now, thanks. 

Going to have to think about what I can do with the handful of pedals I have now. Nothing like your set up, but should be able to figure something interesting out.

It is mostly how I approach it that i was going into.
The gear is somewhat immaterial.

This is probably the simplest looping rig I've had though.
When I was using the Gibson/Oberheim Echoplex looper I had a lot more capability, but it was a lot more set up, bigger pedalboard etc.

A lot of loopers make the half speed and reverse difficult to access, which is a total pain in the ass.

The Line 6 DL4 was an excellent creative looper with both these accessible.
The MK II is even better.

Literally impossible to access on mine  

Surely how you approach it depends on what fx you have?

The one thing I've not tried here is putting fx after the looper. Well, not much. Which is what I thought you meant by not being "static"?
I don't have anything that "evolves" though so not sure it will make that much difference 
I'll maybe try phasers set to different speeds or something. 
A wah or volume, or expression pedal after the loop could be interesting, I suppose. So you could change the loop to suit the dynamics of what you're playing on top.

octatonic

Kurtis said:

Surely how you approach it depends on what fx you have?

Sort of.
If you don't have reverse and 1/2 speed then you can't access those features, sure.

But the focus here is is how I construct/build the loops.
Feeding one loop into another looper is a really good technique, esp if there is some sort of filtering/sound mangling capability in the second looper.

Kurtis said:

I'll maybe try phasers set to different speeds or something. 
A wah or volume, or expression pedal after the loop could be interesting, I suppose. 

I don't use much in the way of modulation.
There is no dedicated modulation on the board at the moment.
The H90 will do it but I just don't use that sound myself.

I'll use some microsound techniques though.
The guitar I mostly use for this stuff has a microphone in it too, on a momentary switch, as well as a hum generator and a kill switch.
I try to do as much by playing/manipulating the guitar, rather than putting an effect across the entire guitar sound.

Kurtis

I'm just trying to think of how I can make a loop sound different each time.

Don't know if I even can do that with the fx I have, apart from by doing it manually?

It's a pity you can't add fx to a loop without needing another looper. Maybe some built in fx.

LionAquaLooper

Kurtis said:

I'm just trying to think of how I can make a loop sound different each time.

Don't know if I even can do that with the fx I have, apart from by doing it manually?

It's a pity you can't add fx to a loop without needing another looper. Maybe some built in fx.

You tried putting your desired FX pedals after the looper?    

Kurtis

LionAquaLooper said:

Kurtis said:

I'm just trying to think of how I can make a loop sound different each time.

Don't know if I even can do that with the fx I have, apart from by doing it manually?

It's a pity you can't add fx to a loop without needing another looper. Maybe some built in fx.

You tried putting your desired FX pedals after the looper?    

That's what I'm thinking, but it wouldn't make the loop different each time, unless I was manually changing the settings? 
I suppose having a delay that feeds back longer than the loop would maybe sound more natural. 

You could probably do stuff with midi but outside of a DAW I don't have anything like that.

That means bypassing it too if you don't want those fx on what you're playing on top. That's not really a problem though.

octatonic

LionAquaLooper said:

Kurtis said:

I'm just trying to think of how I can make a loop sound different each time.

Don't know if I even can do that with the fx I have, apart from by doing it manually?

It's a pity you can't add fx to a loop without needing another looper. Maybe some built in fx.

You tried putting your desired FX pedals after the looper?    

This is what I do.

Filters with un-clocked LFO's are the simplest way to do this.
If you have a 2 second loop and a filter that responds to an LFO so that its sweep is not a multiple of 2seconds then you will have an asymmetrical response because the filter sweep will crest at different points in the loop each time.

The Hexe reVolver IV has a built in filter, so that is what I do with it.
The great thing about my pedalboard is that with the G3S I can reorder the loops, so the Hexe reVolver IV caqn be placed anywhere in the FX chain depending on what I need it for.

Kurtis

I've been trying a wah, and volume pedal, after the looper with some interesting/promising results. Not tried an expression pedal but that would probably give you loads more options. 

I've got a bad cold/cough at the moment though, and struggling a bit with my concentration  Hopefully going to pass soon! 



As an aside, I think this is why I have never owned an actual pedal board 
I like to have a few pedal and some patch cables and sculpt interesting, to me anyway, sounds.
Even have my old Boss ME-8 going as it has a few obscure and cool fx.

Kurtis

Good thread anyway, has renewed some inspiration for me! 

Kurtis

Using something,  after the looper,  like a delay or reverb with trails that overlap the loops certainly helps to blend it all  together.
Rather than just "stop/start" loops.

LionAquaLooper

Kurtis said:

Using something,  after the looper,  like a delay or reverb with trails that overlap the loops certainly helps to blend it all  together.
Rather than just "stop/start" loops.

That takes me back to the 90s when multi fx units had a 1 second lag of silence when switching between presets, so the more advanced ones introduced reverb/delay trails on all presets to mask the lag. I think they called it "seamless switching" or some other BS buzz word