New (digital) piano day - Studiologic Numa Compact SE (with video)

thecolourbox

I finally purchased a spare piano for my wedding gigs, just in case my trusty and entirely adequate Roland FP30X should suddenly encounter any technical difficulties. 

I really wanted a seventy-something key piano but as with many things, I had to accept that they simply don't exist in my price range. I tried working out a setup using the Studiologic 76 key midi keyboard but apparently nobody sells piano midi modules these days so i had to just get past that and make it work with the most compact decent piano i could find. 

I've found that if i put my back seats down in my fiat, I can fit my existing piano diagonally if i put the passenger seat forwards, so off I went to the internet to find a good deal on one of the Numa Compact range. 

Managed to bag a decent price on a B-Stock Numa Compact SE from Thomann for about £400. It's not quite as cheap as it seems as you don't get a sustain pedal with it and it's turned up with a flipping euro two pin plug, so obviously required to purchase a pedal and a uk power supply. Oh and there's no way to add a music stand either, which I'm not quite sure how I'll deal with but I'm working on some drafts for a nice looking stand to be made so we shall see. But still a decent bit of kit for the money i think.

 Studiologic is the brand name of Fatah who i believe make keyboard actions for other higher end brands.

It's meant as a stage piano, very light at 7kg and includes a range of pianos, epianos, organs etc and some bread and butter effects. The grand pianos seem quite bright and probably more suited to jazz than classical but there some eq controls and a mastering control which should help counter that. The key action is not a fully weighted hammer action, but rather a semi weighted one. I assume so that it's a compromise that works for both piano and organ type playing. It's nice to play though and as I've said in piano threads before, a good weighted hammer action is nice to have but it's not essential if there's a good semi weighted in its place. Many actual proper pianos obviously have a weighted hammer action and many of them are awful and atrocious to play! 

Main use case will be as an emergency backup for my main Roland piano for my wedding ceremonies, drinks and breakfasts. I may also use it to set up two pianos at venues where the different sections of the day are too far apart to want to lug my kit everywhere. And lastly, i hope to use it for singing gigs this year as I wouldn't really want to use my main wedding one for that - it's white and bruises easily! I hope to add more singing gigs to my schedule this year, so a nice jazz grand piano sound and a decent rhodes impression soups do the trick I reckon. 

I don't have a photo as it's sat in its box awaiting it's allotted storage space but i will post a video i did the other day using it (sorry in advance for Christmas music content)

Seems a good bit of kit, and very conveniently sized for those wishing to learn or develop their skills on a very capable instrument

thecolourbox

Here's the video! Worth pointing out the recorded piano audio is through the cables into my Zoom h6 recorder (and the mic is too). The built in speakers on the piano are ok as long as you keep the volume down but they aren't great and sound progressively worse as the volume goes up!

Whistler

Have fun with it, which it seems you already are!

Do you mind if I make one critical comment? If I was mixing your event I would have the keyboard louder or your voice quieter to have them more balanced with each other.

axisus

Nice. I'd quite like a cheap keyboard for work, but I'm thinking less than £400! I have two at work already actually, but neither are great. The main one is an 88 key Fatar 90+ that I bought over 30 years ago. It was brilliant back in the day, but it's just a controller so you need sounds, plus it weights a frikkin ton! It's a bit shot now in that the keys sort of clunk when you press them. I tried pulling it apart to see if I could replace the felt dampeners, but it's all kind of built in.

The other is an 88 key M-audio that I bought cheap secondhand. Horrible to play, no weighted keys plus an extremely plastic feel/action. I was disappointed as I had the same model but much smaller and the keys were a lot better.

thecolourbox

Whistler said:

Have fun with it, which it seems you already are!

Do you mind if I make one critical comment? If I was mixing your event I would have the keyboard louder or your voice quieter to have them more balanced with each other.

Thanks, it will be interesting to see if I ever have cause to use it but just need to make sure I'm familiar with it enough to get a decent Grand sound and a decent rhodes sound and then ignore the rest as I don't think I'll have any use for much else. Thanks for the comment on the mix, yes it's a bit squiffy on the balance between the two - I'll blame it on the 20 mins I had to record it, import it to Cubase then mix and export it. I've been doing a musical advent calendar on my social media, mostly just at my proper piano with the phone camera so this one's the only one i've done separately like this. Also my laptop is crap and if I export from Cubase, it always sounds different than in the software itself - the reverb always increases, and a bit of the treble frequencies as well which might explain why I didn't notice it while ham-fisting it together in between the father in law coming to borrow our slow cooker and my mom arriving to go to Nottingham for the day! I've not used my laptop for Cubase for ages so I forgot to do a muffled and lesser-reverbed mix in order to counteract the weird export issue haha

thecolourbox

axisus said:

Nice. I'd quite like a cheap keyboard for work, but I'm thinking less than £400! 

There's probably plenty of decent things now for that purpose, I play about 30 weddings a year so I need compact but decent quality kit that sounds the business but I don't care for the fancy features of more advanced keyboards as i value being able to lift it easily, switch on and play straight away

For your needs, for £300 the Studiologic 73 key midi controller might do the job if you're happy with your sounds from the other two but want a nicer action?

Alternatively for less, stuff like the Korg Liano might do the job but i've no experience of it personally. The Roland FP10 is good but it's not as compact I don't think

I also have a Yamaha MX49 (the first version) which has brilliant sounds but the keys aren't very nice to play for me personally, and it's only 49 keys so a bit small to play properly on. They do a 61 key version as well, so if you don't mind the toy-feeling keys that could be fun (no built in speakers though)

axisus

thecolourbox said:

axisus said:

Nice. I'd quite like a cheap keyboard for work, but I'm thinking less than £400! 

There's probably plenty of decent things now for that purpose, I play about 30 weddings a year so I need compact but decent quality kit that sounds the business but I don't care for the fancy features of more advanced keyboards as i value being able to lift it easily, switch on and play straight away

For your needs, for £300 the Studiologic 73 key midi controller might do the job if you're happy with your sounds from the other two but want a nicer action?

Alternatively for less, stuff like the Korg Liano might do the job but i've no experience of it personally. The Roland FP10 is good but it's not as compact I don't think

I also have a Yamaha MX49 (the first version) which has brilliant sounds but the keys aren't very nice to play for me personally, and it's only 49 keys so a bit small to play properly on. They do a 61 key version as well, so if you don't mind the toy-feeling keys that could be fun (no built in speakers though)

Thanks, I ideally want a built in sound - just piano really. I plan to scrap the other two keyboards. And I like a decent feel to the keys, ideally at least semi weighted.

thecolourbox

The FP10 is a good solid choice, but might be above budget new - when i bought my fp30x it was actually the fp10 i tried and liked more than the others in the store. They didn't have an fp30x to try but i felt that a "better" version of the 10 would be about right. 

There was a Studiologic Numa Compact 2 (previous version of mine, released in 2021) on B Stock sale at Scan.co.uk for £360 but I'm guessing that's a little over budget too.

thecolourbox

Well a bit of good news is that the power supply to my Roland fp30x also works with the Studiologic, and i have two of those already so at least i sort need to spring for a uk plug version of the Studiologic one

Basher

Just wondering how you're getting on with the Numa Compact SE @thecolourbox ;

Am considering getting one but haven't quite made my mind up.

I'd really like something I can put on my desktop to follow along with YouTube tutorials and suchlike. I have a nice keyboard, a Yamaha CK88, but while it's very portable by 88 key stage piano standards, it's just that bit to big and bulky to keep transferring from it's stand to my standard 120cm Ikea desk. Even when it's on there, the height makes the keys uncomfortable to play.

I was going to get the Studiologic SL73 MkII but, while the 105cm width will sit on the desk, it's almost as tall as the CK88 and almost the same weight.

This is where the Numa Compact SE interests me. Although it's still 127mm wide, that's slightly narrower than the CK88, it's about two thirds as tall and as deep. This means it would fit a lot better on the desk and, being almost half the weight, be a lot easier to quickly put it on there and store away when not needed.

I guess losing the weighted keys is the downside but I can live with that. I'm guessing the semi-weighted Fatar keybed will be nicer than my unweighted 49 key Nektar controller. Obviously the benefits are that the Numa does make it's own noises and it has inbuilt speakers. This means I can drag it into less cold regions of the house in winter relatively easily.

Just wondering if you had any additional thoughts on the Numa Compact SE, having now had it over 6 months?

PS: Don't bother replying if you're busy or can't be bothered. It's just that there isn't a lot of content out there on the Studiologic stuff.

thecolourbox

@Basher ;;Ah yes I have had it quite a while now, it's my spare piano for my wedding gigs and thankfully I've had no failures of the main piano yet so I've not had to call upon it in that scenario. I've used it a few times at home as a midi controller for virtual instruments, So it's fairly limited experience of it in use, but of course I'm happy to share my thoughts on it so far.

In summary, i'd say it was an adequate piece of kit, rather than a brilliant piece of kit. It serves several purposes well (more on this below) but it doesn't sound or look as good as my main piano, a Roland FP30X, on the acoustic piano sounds. But then why should it I suppose, given it was half the price. 

I wouldn't stress too much about the keyboard action being semi weighted - I'd probably say alongside the size/weight, the keyboard feel and action is the best thing about the piano. My view is that an excellent semi-weighted keyboard is better than a rubbish fully weighted one. When I tried digital pianos whilst getting my wedding setup originally, I tried pianos by Casio and Kawai which were fully weighted but felt awful. I tried some Yamahas and whilst they are objectively not awful, they just didn't match my preferences. That's Yamaha pianos in general though, I'm doing a concert on a Yamaha grand this Saturday and that feels similar - it's just preference on the Yamaha action, but as I say the Casio and Kawai ones felt abysmal. The Numa feels really nice to play and the semi-weighted action gives a good compromise to cover both acoustic piano playing and also the other stuff, electric pianos, organs, bass sounds, that kind of thing.

The Studiologic SL73 I suspect would therefore be a great bit of kit IF you only want a piano action to use with plugin virtual instruments. But as you say, it's only size saving is the width, so if that form factor doesn't suit you then it may not be the best for you. Proper weighted actions weigh a bit, I suppose. As and when my crappy Yamaha MX49 finally dies a death, I'd be up for an SL73 for midi controller duties I think.

Here are my Positives and Negatives:

Positives:

• Form factor - it's as small as it can be in all directions, and weighs not very much. The keyboard is full sized, keys feel like proper keys. Great for how you describe your use case, easy to lift and move around to get it out when needed.
• As above, the keyboard action feels nice. It's not going to get you through a classical diploma but it feels good and is a nice compromise that works with the acoustic pianos, electric pianos, organ, and other sounds.
• There are a number of decent sounds in there. The acoustic pianos I find a bit lacking compared to the Roland I use for weddings (see negatives), but the e-pianos sound much better. I don't really like many organ sounds so I don't know if they are any good or not - I think the deluxe version has drawbars for that though which could be useful in customising nicer organ sounds?
• There's some EQ options and a "Mastering" knob which basically seems to be a "make everything sound better" knob. As a result I leave that on about 90% then tweak the treble and bass to taste.
• Built in effects as well which is nice, some reverbs, then drives, trems and rotarys for the pianos and organs which are nice
• Works really well as a midi controller

Negatives:

• The built in speakers are rubbish. If you have them on really quiet then they are just about ok, but at any volume above that they sound like phone speakers. You'll need to plug it into something else, then it sounds good.
• The acoustic piano sounds are not as hefty or impressive with the dynamic range compared with the Roland I use. Probably in band or recorded context it's less noticeable, and it's probably fine for jazz as well for similar reasons. I've not installed the app to my laptop yet so that may well give me more options to tweak it accordingly, I'm not sure.
• I found when using it as a midi controller playing piano for my last Composition CHallenge entry, that I felt like I was really having to pound the keys more than the volume that was coming back at me, if that makes sense? Hard to explain - i think maybe the dynamic range is not as wide, whereas on my roland I can dance over the keys or really hammer them (or anything inbetween) and get the right kind of sounds back.
• It looks a bit small and pathetic on my keyboard stand in a wedding setting, but obviously that's pretty minor and probably based on my perception. I suspect nobody else would care.
• The outputs are on the back where you can't see them if you're sat at the keyboard, and they are labelled with imprinted text into the back, rather than being printed in a different colour so it's really hard to see which is which quickly. Again that's likely to be minor if you leave it plugged in, and even if not it's just a minor irritation

Hopefully this helps, if I think of anything else I'll post here

Basher

Wow! Thank you @thecolourbox for such a comprehensive reply.

Funny that you say that about the "pounding the keys" thing. I've read that criticism about other Studiologic stuff, where the midi note velocity is very low compared to the pressure being put on the keys. I seem to get this too when I use my CK88 as a controller. I first noticed it when I was watching a YouTube review of the Native Instruments pianos. Someone was praising the "Noire" piano while just gently tinkling away and getting a lovely bright and lively sound. Noire has always sounded very dark to me (even the non-felt "pure" presets) and I realised that I'd have to be absolutely hammering the Yamaha keys to get the same sort of sounds as the reviewer seemed to be effortlessly getting. (And this was with me using the soft velocity curve setting, that gives the highest velocity output for a given key pressure.)

I'll give it some thought. It's all rather preposterous as I'm a complete beginner on keys and I don't deserve the gear I have (CK88 and Hydrasynth) so the idea of acquiring another keyboard is probably vaguely disgusting/decadent/pathetic etc. 

My problem is one of space configuration. The ideal would be a desk that has one of those sliding keyboard shelves underneath. However, one big and robust enough to accommodate the CK88 would be far more expensive than something like the SL73 or Compact SE. 

Sad about the speakers being poor. They're not amazing on the Yamaha but perfectly adequate for home use. Only problem is that they're downward facing so they sound ok on a stand but not on a desk (even using the appropriate tabletop eq setting).

The Numa Compact X SE (they really need to get better model names) does indeed have the drawbars but there's something like a 50% upcharge for the privilege. I'm sure they're nice (they do control some synth parameters too) but not an additional £200+ nice! (Besides, the regular SE has the "make everything sound better knob, and I think that's the one that counts.)

I know that I could even get by with a 61 key controller for my sub-appalling keyboard chops. It's just that they're not that easy to come by with proper semi-weighted actions. Many that say they have this are still very light indeed and basically synth action. It's just that since I got the Yamaha, I get such pleasure from the feedback from the heavier keys, particularly using piano or Rhodes sounds.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply so comprehensively, much appreciated. 

PS: Loved your version of "Spaceman" above. 

thecolourbox

You're welcome mate - always happy to talk about piano (moreso than guitar to be honest!) so it's nice to have the opportunity to discuss something I actually know stuff about and help somebody.

Can I just pick you up on this sentence though:

Basher said:

It's all rather preposterous as I'm a complete beginner on keys and I don't deserve the gear I have (CK88 and Hydrasynth) so the idea of acquiring another keyboard is probably vaguely disgusting/decadent/pathetic etc. 

Please don't think like that - if you enjoy playing then you're good enough, and if you enjoy the kit you have or end up getting) then that's great and you should enjoy it without worrying if it's this that or the other. I've never played on but the CK88 is a well regarded piano and one of the standard instruments used by people who use stage pianos and keyboards, so it's a good thing to have something capable so you can focus on playing and enjoying that rather than worrying about shortfalls of the kit.

I went for the FP30X rather than one of the "better" ones purely because it was compact enough for my wedding gig setups, I'd have had the FP10 but it doesn't have  1/4" outputs (mono or stereo), only an 1/8" stereo headphone socket which is a pain. I@d much prefer the fp60 or 90 but for what I use it for, the 60 is fine. I took a similar approach with the Numa Compact.

If I needed a piano for home playing then I'd definitely go for a fancy one, but I have an scoustic upright so no need

Basher

Thanks for the encouragement @thecolourbox ;

The CK88 was, in truth, a bit of an impulse buy.

I'd wanted a "piano" for a few years but only recently started looking into it in any detail. I also love the sound of Rhodes and Wurli EPs in particular as well as various organs, so some sort of stage model made sense. The Yamaha came up on a decent B-stock deal and with Andertons and I had a few pounds in points from previous purchases with them so it was quite a decent saving on the full price, hence the quick decision.

I haven't regretted it, other than briefly when reading how bad the Yamaha GHS action is considered on various forums. Then I realised that I've no idea what constitutes a good action so I wouldn't know what makes a bad one either!
For my level, it's more than enough and I have enjoyed learning a few basics. My problem now is how to take things forward. I'm not really interested in reading music or playing classical pieces so I'm just learning the chords and inversions. There are a lot of lessons on YouTube but sometimes too much choice can be confusing. There don't seem to be any definitive step-by-step tuition books for keyboard (as opposed to piano) but I'd like something with a bit more direction. In the meantime, I've been trying to play a circle-of-fifths exercise by "The Keys Coach" but it's taking me weeks and weeks. What's good is that you have to play all the tricky chords as you go through all 12 keys.

I'm still enjoying the magic of having all the notes laid out in front of me. Things like extended chords seem to work so much better on piano than guitar and some of those rich voicings are so beautiful (minor 11ths are my favourite as you can use a simple triad stacking formula to create them, just play a LH minor triad and add the major triad a tone below with the RH e.g. Dm + C to give Dm11).

Anyway. Sorry to blather. There's a B-stock Numa Compact SE on Thomann with a few quid off but I can't be in for delivery due to various commitments. I'll see if it's still available in a couple of days. There was a B-Stock SL73 MK2 but that sold pretty quickly. Thanks again for all the advice and support.  

thecolourbox

So a bit of an update on this one. I played a wedding the other day where I had to be in two places at once, ceremony and initial drinks in a meadow and garden, then further drinks on the terrace, about 5 mins walk away. So I opted for a two-piano setup, used my proper Roland one for the Ceremony and garden drinks, then I set up the Numa Compact on a second stand on the terrace so I could just nip from one to the other and start playing instantly. I did use the same amp though as I wanted to see how the Numa fared with all other things being equal.

The proper piano sounded lovely for the ceremony and drinks. The Numa Compact sounded....well, awful to be honest. I was quite shocked how bad it sounded amplified. Thankfully guests didn't seem to notice and still had nice comments but I was not happy with it all. It seemed to lack dynamics and sustain on all the different piano models, I suppose it's just that it doesnt have the depth/range of samples that the Roland does, I play quite softly on the Roland so I have some variety when I do play it a bit louder. The Numa just didn't seem to have enough variety, almost reminiscent of those old kids' keyboards where it makes no difference how hard you hit the keys you get the same volume. There was some difference, and I had to adapt my playing as a result (less left hand) and I think the touch sensitivity is up fairly high, I just don't think it has the depth of samples for the pianos unfortunately.

After guests had gone off to the breakfast I did try a few of the other sounds and the electric pianos sounded good, so I think I shall keep it in case I need to use those at some point, but I'm not sure I can keep it to use as my wedding piano backup as it just didn't sound good enough. Its also useful as a midi controller for VST instruments, so I may need to consider a mini-pc setup to attach to it via usb midi so that it sounds better, who knows.

@Basher may be useful info for you if you are still looking for a compact piano. to know more about  the shortfalls of this particular model

Basher

@thecolourbox thanks for the update.

Surprised to hear that it sounded so bad, given the positive reviews I've read from people with lots of piano/keys experience. Must say that it sounds good to me on demo videos but  suppose these can be deceptive.

I was considering buying the Numa X Piano in it's 73 key variant but am now reconsidering after your report!

I bought the SL73 mk2 controller a few weeks ago but had to return it as I really struggled to get the midi stuff going with Reaper. Loved the feel of the TP/110 keys but some were already making a loud "clacking" noise. The unit was B-stock however so I was prepared to try Studiologic again. My reasoning was that he 73 key size fitted perfectly with my desk and I could just use it as a keys only controller to input notes albeit with the handy feature of having it's own sounds if I ever needed them. 

I've been looking at various reviews and the piano sounds are apparently created with some sort of hybrid sampling plus modelling technology. Assuming the Numa Compact uses the same tech, I wonder if this explains your dislike? 

I recently downloaded an evaluation of the Pianoteq program, which is 100% modelled. Must say that I wasn't that blown away by it. Some models were ok but some sounded a bit lifeless. The electric Wurlitzers were bloody awful - very dull indeed. Yet this is a program that seems to be loved, if not adored, by many great players!

It wasn't that Pianoteq was bad as such, there just seemed to be a bit of a "house sound" with very thick midrange that somehow lacked subtlety. I am however perfectly prepared to accept that this was my perception and that my lack of keyboard knowledge and experience leads me to not know how these things are supposed to sound. 

So here we are again eh? So sorry to hear your negative experience with the Numa Compact. 

PS: I believe you can load some extra pianos into the Numa range, a-la-Nord. I've read that these are better than the ones in the stock memory. Have you tried any of these?

thecolourbox

I've not tried the extra software just yet, i don't really have anywhere to set the keyboard up very easily at home but I really should try it. I'm hoping the general settings on the keyboard can be done via the software too as it's a pain in arse doing them on the instrument itself. 

Hopefully my experience is declared null and void by upgrading with the software!

thecolourbox

I tell a lie, I had already uploaded the two available "extra" pianos to it via the App and whilst they are indeed slightly better than the existing ones (I'd settled on the German one the other day I think), they still sound bad. 

there are audio examples here https://www.studiologic-music.com/products/numacompact_se/sounds/ which show exactly what I mean, almost as if muted strings slightly and the bass notes are very attack heavy but with no real depth to them.

Hmm, now to decide if I would indeed benefit from keeping it as a stage piano for the rhodes etc sounds, or do I face reality that I'm not going to get gigs where that's appropriate and just try to flog it for something more suitable?

hollywoodrox

@thecolourbox  that was bloody brilliant well done  congrats on the new piano 

thecolourbox

hollywoodrox said:

@thecolourbox  that was bloody brilliant well done  congrats on the new piano 

That's very kind mate, but things have developed in my essays of text above and I'm already thinking i need to sack it off and get a different one (that's the short version)

Basher

thecolourbox said:

I tell a lie, I had already uploaded the two available "extra" pianos to it via the App and whilst they are indeed slightly better than the existing ones (I'd settled on the German one the other day I think), they still sound bad. 

there are audio examples here https://www.studiologic-music.com/products/numacompact_se/sounds/ which show exactly what I mean, almost as if muted strings slightly and the bass notes are very attack heavy but with no real depth to them.

I was just listening to those examples and, TBH, I think they sound nice.

That said, it's fast becoming clear to me that I have absolutely no ability to discern the sound of a nice piano from that of a broken, old pub joanna that's been abandoned in a subway and shat in by tramps. (There's probably a VST of one of those if you look hard enough.)

thecolourbox also said:

Hmm, now to decide if I would indeed benefit from keeping it as a stage piano for the rhodes etc sounds, or do I face reality that I'm not going to get gigs where that's appropriate and just try to flog it for something more suitable?

Looked at one way, it's probably the best value, lightweight,88-key controller with an actual Fatar keybed. You could probably carry it with you on the bus, train or be parachuted into a gig with it. I'm just shocked that you find the pianos to be so offensive. That said, you can actually play piano so I'm sure you know your own mind (and ears) as to the sound you like.

Looked at another way, it's probably money tied up in something you aren't using. I don't know what the "something more suitable" would be, but I daresay it'll cost a fair bit more than a Compact SE.