Rift Amps - Be Aware Of Your Legal Rights Regarding Waiting Lists And Deposits (updated by admin)

hyperben

NOTE FROM ADMIN: There are important further updates to this thread for the full story. See responses from Rift Amps here and here, and my final update here summarising the situation and actions to be taken.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All I can say is wow, I’m amazed I’m having to write this, but given how I’ve been treated I am compelled to share this experience. Originally I didn’t disclose the manufacturer, but ive now decided to. This post is about the Rift Aynsley Lister model, an amplifier I’m sure is oustanding. My personal experience was not so good though. Everyone has a bad experience from time to time, but the stress this caused me, the fight I had to have and the attitude I was faced with can’t go without mention I’m afraid.  

Firstly, let me just say that I am not providing legal advice - I am trying to raise awareness around this issue so other people don't get caught out in the same way I was.

 

So, I decided to order an amplifier that there is a waiting list for. I paid the first 50%, £2000 upfront by credit card. Very excited as this thing sounds amazing on YouTube demos. Anyway, a while later I discovered this amp makes a loud hissing noise so really quite noisy and something I know I can’t live with. I had no idea about this until a short while after ordering. I contacted the amplifier manufacturer and asked if I could cancel the order. They said that unfortunately the 14-day period since ordering has now passed so this order cannot be cancelled without forfeiting the £2000 deposit, as per the T&Cs and stated on the deposit invoice. They stated, however, they were happy to offer the build to someone else and refund me (minus transaction fees and any other costs) should they agree to take it on.

 

I thought ok, that’s annoying but I understood what they were saying. I had missed the 14-day period by only 10 hours so I was marginally frustrated, but it seemed reasonable I might be able to get some of my money back, though they stated they didn't have to offer me this (i.e. they were doing me a favour). Something didn’t quite seem right though because I knew I was buying a standard production amp at distance and so thought distance selling rules should apply (i.e. 14 day cooling off period starts the day of delivery). My position in the build queue was around 10 months later so the amplifier hadn't even started life as a circuit board yet...how is it reasonable for me to lose £2000 deposit? Nothing was making sense. Whilst it was an artist signature model amplifier it was still built to a standard mass production specification and so does not qualify as an item that is bespoke to me. I thought that normally with distance sales you get a 14-day cooling off period after delivery, not once the order is placed, so I researched this further. I contacted the Citizens Advice Bureau who confirmed that the 14-day cooling off period commences the day the goods are delivered and not the day the order is placed, and so the retention of a 50% upfront deposit payment was not compliant with The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013. This situation was therefore a breach of the law and the manufacturer is not entitled to retain my deposit, whatever the terms on the invoice stated.

 

I put this to the amplifier manufacturer and was told that the T&Cs were drafted by their solicitors and fully comply any with and all obligations set out in the legislation. There was nothing in the T&Cs about deposit retention - this was only a statement on the invoice. They didn't seem to understand that the terms on the invoice don't comply with all legislation. I was then provided with the solicitor’s contact details should I need it. I thought well no I’m not really happy with that because Citizens Advice have told me that I’m entitled to have all my money back. Citizens Advice also told me to send a recorded letter using one of their templates asking for a refund because they were in breach of contract with a 14 day time deadline. On day 14 I did receive a partial refund (ADMIN EDIT: This refund was £1930.50, which was the full amount minus £69.50 processing fees, ie Rift's actual losses as allowed under law, albeit described as a "partial refund" by the automated notification),  but not the whole amount, and no communication from the manufacturer. Citizens Advice also suggested I open a Section 75 claim with my credit card provider as they would be able to get me a full refund, so that it exactly what I did as I felt I was being prevented from exercising my legal right to cancel. My credit card provider came back to me today and stated they were satisfied that I had provided sufficient evidence to support a breach of contract by the manufacturer and that I would receive a full refund.

 

So…long post just to say that if have joined a waiting list for a standard production product in the UK, whether it's a guitar, an amplifier, a pedal, whatever, you are entitled to cancel and receive a full refund any time whilst you are on the waiting list up to 14 days after the product has been delivered to you. The manufacturer is not entitled to keep any of your deposit at all. If you have any issues you can get proper legal advice from the Citizens Advice Bureau and consider a Section 75 claim. I hope sharing this saves someone else of having to go through the same stress.

Schmo

Sorry to hear of your troubles & glad you have resolved matters - it would help to know who the company involved is, as I'd certainly want to avoid them if this is the kind of nonsense they peddle...

Switch625

Ya, name and shame.

Kittyfrisk

What shitty attitude & customer service.
I reckon that as long as it is legal & not going to get TFB in trouble, I'd want to know which company it was too.

hyperben

I don’t really want to go naming names, but I expect there’s enough information in my post for you to be able to work it out for yourselves. The main point here is that your legal rights on a waiting list are you can just cancel and ask for your money back and you’re entitled to do that. It does not matter that the invoice states 50% deposit is non-refundable as they’re not allowed to withhold it. It’s only if you’ve ordered something truly bespoke and unique that you can’t (I.e. a complete one-off), and even then the amount retained can only be a reasonable amount reflecting the costs incurred. A £2000 deposit retention would not be reasonable even in that situation if the build hasn’t even started yet and is many months away (I.e. no ordered parts etc.).

euan

I have a feeling this thread might not last long. 

Especially since assumptions can rightfully or wrongly be made given OP’s posting history 

hyperben

euan said:

I have a feeling this thread might not last long. 

Why do you have that feeling?

Tannin

hyperben said:

I don’t really want to go naming names

They shafted you. Name names. 

digitalscream

euan said:

I have a feeling this thread might not last long. 

Especially since assumptions can rightfully or wrongly be made given OP’s posting history 

It's fine, as long as:

1 - Nobody but the OP names the business in question
2 - The OP has a paper trail (emails etc) where appropriate to support the account above (I don't need to see them unless there's a challenge)
3 - No pitchforks

hyperben

Ok, I’ve decided to say who the amplifier manufacturer is. This was Rift Amps and the model I was ordering was the Aynsley Lister Signature model. I hope they can reflect on this and other people don’t get the same experience.

Sporky

hyperben said:

It does not matter that the invoice states 50% deposit is non-refundable as they’re not allowed to withhold it.

This is, I think, worth repeating. Lots of businesses have illegal T&Cs. Usually smaller things, like not refunding the outgoing postage on returns. You cannot in general sign away your legal rights, so such terms are generally unenforceable. 

digitalscream

Sporky said:

hyperben said:

It does not matter that the invoice states 50% deposit is non-refundable as they’re not allowed to withhold it.

This is, I think, worth repeating. Lots of businesses have illegal T&Cs. Usually smaller things, like not refunding the outgoing postage on returns. You cannot in general sign away your legal rights, so such terms are generally unenforceable. 

Indeed - I think the only way you can sign away your legal rights is if the contract is equitable (ie there is equal loss of rights for the other party, or there is compensation for the loss), but I'm no expert in contract law.

In any case, having seen the details, the T&Cs do state the correct 14-day cancellation window; it's the note on the invoice which attempts to invalidate that by stating that the initial payment is non-refundable.

The law does allow for non-refundable deposits, and states that they should only be a small percentage of the total price to cover real-world losses from the cancellation (see here).

hyperben

digitalscream said:

Sporky said:

hyperben said:

It does not matter that the invoice states 50% deposit is non-refundable as they’re not allowed to withhold it.

This is, I think, worth repeating. Lots of businesses have illegal T&Cs. Usually smaller things, like not refunding the outgoing postage on returns. You cannot in general sign away your legal rights, so such terms are generally unenforceable. 

Indeed - I think the only way you can sign away your legal rights is if the contract is equitable (ie there is equal loss of rights for the other party, or there is compensation for the loss), but I'm no expert in contract law.

In any case, having seen the details, the T&Cs do state the correct 14-day cancellation window; it's the note on the invoice which attempts to invalidate that by stating that the initial payment is non-refundable.

The law does allow for non-refundable deposits, and states that they should only be a small percentage of the total price to cover real-world losses from the cancellation (see here).

It does but only in certain circumstances. Typically services, custom ordered goods etc. For standard production type stuff I don’t believe any form of deposit retention is legally binding as the seller can just sell the goods to someone else and incur no loss. There’s plenty of other people to sell it to when the waiting list is 18 months long and you haven’t even built it yet.

Gilly

This is just scummy business practice. Attempting to hide behind “T&Cs” in order to keep your full deposit when they haven’t incurred any costs other than the time to send a few emails. 

Dave8

Gilly said:

This is just scummy business practice. Attempting to hide behind “T&Cs” in order to keep your full deposit when they haven’t incurred any costs other than the time to send a few emails. 

Time + non refundable (by the vendor) transaction fees (I assume)

Gilly

Dave8 said:

Gilly said:

This is just scummy business practice. Attempting to hide behind “T&Cs” in order to keep your full deposit when they haven’t incurred any costs other than the time to send a few emails. 

Time + non refundable (by the vendor) transaction fees (I assume)

I think you could even argue that the time is just an everyday cost of the business. Just like if someone emails or phones to ask questions about the product but then doesn’t place an order.

I’d have more sympathy if people were placing orders and cancelling all the time and wasting a lot of the owner’s time but realistically how often does this happen? It would take the owner minimal time to process the cancellation and move on. 

It just sounds like predatory tactics by the owner, taking advantage of the situation because the money is in their account and the onus is now on the customer to try to get it back. I certainly will be avoiding this business from now on.

Blueingreen

Sporky said:

hyperben said:

It does not matter that the invoice states 50% deposit is non-refundable as they’re not allowed to withhold it.

This is, I think, worth repeating. Lots of businesses have illegal T&Cs. Usually smaller things, like not refunding the outgoing postage on returns. You cannot in general sign away your legal rights, so such terms are generally unenforceable. 

I have a simple rule with this, if anything in the T&Cs (or the sales blurb) is an attempt to reduce my legal rights I won’t buy anything from that vendor. Buying goods, especially highly priced goods, from distance is a risky enough business without knowingly dealing with people who have already proved they are capable of acting in bad faith.

euan

Dave8 said:

Gilly said:

This is just scummy business practice. Attempting to hide behind “T&Cs” in order to keep your full deposit when they haven’t incurred any costs other than the time to send a few emails. 

Time + non refundable (by the vendor) transaction fees (I assume)

1. Make a YouTube video about it 
2. Profit

mgaw

A small amount to express an interest being non refundable I could understand, but £2000!!!
What on earth is the bloke thinking? 

paulmapp8306

hyperben said:

All I can say is wow, I’m amazed I’m having to write this, but given how I’ve been treated I am compelled to share this experience. Originally I didn’t disclose the manufacturer, but ive now decided to. This post is about the Rift Aynsley Lister model, an amplifier I’m sure is oustanding. My personal experience was not so good though. Everyone has a bad experience from time to time, but the stress this caused me, the fight I had to have and the attitude I was faced with can’t go without mention I’m afraid.  

Firstly, let me just say that I am not providing legal advice - I am trying to raise awareness around this issue so other people don't get caught out in the same way I was.

 

So, I decided to order an amplifier that there is a waiting list for. I paid the first 50%, £2000 upfront by credit card. Very excited as this thing sounds amazing on YouTube demos. Anyway, a while later I discovered this amp makes a loud hissing noise so really quite noisy and something I know I can’t live with. I had no idea about this until a short while after ordering. I contacted the amplifier manufacturer and asked if I could cancel the order. They said that unfortunately the 14-day period since ordering has now passed so this order cannot be cancelled without forfeiting the £2000 deposit, as per the T&Cs and stated on the deposit invoice. They stated, however, they were happy to offer the build to someone else and refund me (minus transaction fees and any other costs) should they agree to take it on.

 

I thought ok, that’s annoying but I understood what they were saying. I had missed the 14-day period by only 10 hours so I was marginally frustrated, but it seemed reasonable I might be able to get some of my money back, though they stated they didn't have to offer me this (i.e. they were doing me a favour). Something didn’t quite seem right though because I knew I was buying a standard production amp at distance and so thought distance selling rules should apply (i.e. 14 day cooling off period starts the day of delivery). My position in the build queue was around 10 months later so the amplifier hadn't even started life as a circuit board yet...how is it reasonable for me to lose £2000 deposit? Nothing was making sense. Whilst it was an artist signature model amplifier it was still built to a standard mass production specification and so does not qualify as an item that is bespoke to me. I thought that normally with distance sales you get a 14-day cooling off period after delivery, not once the order is placed, so I researched this further. I contacted the Citizens Advice Bureau who confirmed that the 14-day cooling off period commences the day the goods are delivered and not the day the order is placed, and so the retention of a 50% upfront deposit payment was not compliant with The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013. This situation was therefore a breach of the law and the manufacturer is not entitled to retain my deposit, whatever the terms on the invoice stated.

 

I put this to the amplifier manufacturer and was told that the T&Cs were drafted by their solicitors and fully comply any with and all obligations set out in the legislation. There was nothing in the T&Cs about deposit retention - this was only a statement on the invoice. They didn't seem to understand that the terms on the invoice don't comply with all legislation. I was then provided with the solicitor’s contact details should I need it. I thought well no I’m not really happy with that because Citizens Advice have told me that I’m entitled to have all my money back. Citizens Advice also told me to send a recorded letter using one of their templates asking for a refund because they were in breach of contract with a 14 day time deadline. On day 14 I did receive a partial refund,  but not the whole amount, and no communication from the manufacturer. Citizens Advice also suggested I open a Section 75 claim with my credit card provider as they would be able to get me a full refund, so that it exactly what I did as I felt I was being prevented from exercising my legal right to cancel. My credit card provider came back to me today and stated they were satisfied that I had provided sufficient evidence to support a breach of contract by the manufacturer and that I would receive a full refund.

 

So…long post just to say that if have joined a waiting list for a standard production product in the UK, whether it's a guitar, an amplifier, a pedal, whatever, you are entitled to cancel and receive a full refund any time whilst you are on the waiting list up to 14 days after the product has been delivered to you. The manufacturer is not entitled to keep any of your deposit at all. If you have any issues you can get proper legal advice from the Citizens Advice Bureau and consider a Section 75 claim. I hope sharing this saves someone else of having to go through the same stress.

Its my understanding - that if an item is built to order (regardless of if its completely bespoke or a standard design thats just not built to stock) then the 14 days remote selling doesnt apply.  Understandable actually, as it cant just be returned and sold later easily.  Ive certainly has custom  order stuff where it cant be returned at all once dispatched because of the bespoke build. 

In these situations - its completely down to the T&Cs of the builder as to what they offer in the way of a cancellation.  Some are OK as long as the build hasnt started - which includes ordering any parts needed - others its a set time period from order as in this case.

I get its extremely frustrating - but Im no really seeing anything wrong as such with whats happened or the T&Cs applied...however....  My only comment is that if there is a waiting list (ie its not a built to order that can be started as soon as the order is received) as in this case - I dont see why there is a problem cancelling/refunding that your order and bumping everyone elses up that list.  There is literally no downside to the manufacturer, no losses etc.   

hyperben

paulmapp8306 said:

hyperben said:

All I can say is wow, I’m amazed I’m having to write this, but given how I’ve been treated I am compelled to share this experience. Originally I didn’t disclose the manufacturer, but ive now decided to. This post is about the Rift Aynsley Lister model, an amplifier I’m sure is oustanding. My personal experience was not so good though. Everyone has a bad experience from time to time, but the stress this caused me, the fight I had to have and the attitude I was faced with can’t go without mention I’m afraid.  

Firstly, let me just say that I am not providing legal advice - I am trying to raise awareness around this issue so other people don't get caught out in the same way I was.

 

So, I decided to order an amplifier that there is a waiting list for. I paid the first 50%, £2000 upfront by credit card. Very excited as this thing sounds amazing on YouTube demos. Anyway, a while later I discovered this amp makes a loud hissing noise so really quite noisy and something I know I can’t live with. I had no idea about this until a short while after ordering. I contacted the amplifier manufacturer and asked if I could cancel the order. They said that unfortunately the 14-day period since ordering has now passed so this order cannot be cancelled without forfeiting the £2000 deposit, as per the T&Cs and stated on the deposit invoice. They stated, however, they were happy to offer the build to someone else and refund me (minus transaction fees and any other costs) should they agree to take it on.

 

I thought ok, that’s annoying but I understood what they were saying. I had missed the 14-day period by only 10 hours so I was marginally frustrated, but it seemed reasonable I might be able to get some of my money back, though they stated they didn't have to offer me this (i.e. they were doing me a favour). Something didn’t quite seem right though because I knew I was buying a standard production amp at distance and so thought distance selling rules should apply (i.e. 14 day cooling off period starts the day of delivery). My position in the build queue was around 10 months later so the amplifier hadn't even started life as a circuit board yet...how is it reasonable for me to lose £2000 deposit? Nothing was making sense. Whilst it was an artist signature model amplifier it was still built to a standard mass production specification and so does not qualify as an item that is bespoke to me. I thought that normally with distance sales you get a 14-day cooling off period after delivery, not once the order is placed, so I researched this further. I contacted the Citizens Advice Bureau who confirmed that the 14-day cooling off period commences the day the goods are delivered and not the day the order is placed, and so the retention of a 50% upfront deposit payment was not compliant with The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013. This situation was therefore a breach of the law and the manufacturer is not entitled to retain my deposit, whatever the terms on the invoice stated.

 

I put this to the amplifier manufacturer and was told that the T&Cs were drafted by their solicitors and fully comply any with and all obligations set out in the legislation. There was nothing in the T&Cs about deposit retention - this was only a statement on the invoice. They didn't seem to understand that the terms on the invoice don't comply with all legislation. I was then provided with the solicitor’s contact details should I need it. I thought well no I’m not really happy with that because Citizens Advice have told me that I’m entitled to have all my money back. Citizens Advice also told me to send a recorded letter using one of their templates asking for a refund because they were in breach of contract with a 14 day time deadline. On day 14 I did receive a partial refund,  but not the whole amount, and no communication from the manufacturer. Citizens Advice also suggested I open a Section 75 claim with my credit card provider as they would be able to get me a full refund, so that it exactly what I did as I felt I was being prevented from exercising my legal right to cancel. My credit card provider came back to me today and stated they were satisfied that I had provided sufficient evidence to support a breach of contract by the manufacturer and that I would receive a full refund.

 

So…long post just to say that if have joined a waiting list for a standard production product in the UK, whether it's a guitar, an amplifier, a pedal, whatever, you are entitled to cancel and receive a full refund any time whilst you are on the waiting list up to 14 days after the product has been delivered to you. The manufacturer is not entitled to keep any of your deposit at all. If you have any issues you can get proper legal advice from the Citizens Advice Bureau and consider a Section 75 claim. I hope sharing this saves someone else of having to go through the same stress.

Its my understanding - that if an item is built to order (regardless of if its completely bespoke or a standard design thats just not built to stock) then the 14 days remote selling doesnt apply.  Understandable actually, as it cant just be returned and sold later. 

In these situations - its completely down to the T&Cs of the builder as to what they offer in the way of a cancellation.  Some are OK as long as the build hasnt started - which includes ordering any parts needed - others its a set period.

I get its extremely frustrating - but Im no really seeing anything wrong as such with whats happened.  My only comment is that if there is a waiting list (ie its not a built to order that can be started as soon as the order is received) as in this case - I dont see why there is a problem cancelling/refunding that your order and bumping everyone elses up that list.  

Your understanding is wrong I’m afraid.