Question about CAGED and the Major Pentatonic

Greenman13

I am in the process of learning CAGED and how the major pentatonic fits over it. My problem is that I am struggling to understand the major pentatonic as, up until now I have learnt the minor pentatonic shapes. I know they are the same shapes just with the roots in different places but for some reason this is confusing me. Also there isn't a lot of major pentatonic licks on the likes of YouTube etc whilst there is loads of them for the minor pentatonic scale. I'm curious to understand how everyone else learnt how to make music with CAGED and the best ways of practicing it. Should I jump straight into learning CAGED for minor pentatonic or master the major first. Any tips or links to lessons would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Plectrum

I know that a lot of people push CAGED but Tim Pierce has tutorial with a somewhat less-than-enthusiastic view on it. For a start there are only three basic major chord shapes not five (C = D and A = G). Instead Tim tends to think about chord tones i.e. the notes which make up the chord you're playing over. As long as you land on one of those on the first beat of the bar or on a chord change you have a lot of freedom in the rest of the bar and it will still probably sound OK. I think Tim's approach is worth serious consideration. It seems like a simpler and more practical approach than CAGED. I think the reason that there isn't much stuff around about the major pentatonic is not much is played purely in that scale. It's really not that useful in isolation. You'll find that players tend to mix and match the two pentatonics. I still think the best was to learn is by learning other people's solos. It's what all the great players did.

Roland

Greenman13 said:

... I know they are the same shapes just with the roots in different places but for some reason this is confusing me…

You can look at it this way, but it’s not the only way. It’s a useful method because it allows you to take the Em pentatonic, or the full Em scale for that matter, and use the same notes to get the G major scale by starting on the note three frets up. However, as you say, it can be confusing.

There are other ways, and you may or may not find them more useful. You asked how I learned. It was some 55 years ago. No one haws using the term CAGED. I started with the Am pentatonic because a lot of the songs I wanted to play were in Am. I didn’t move on to major scales until I wanted to learn a song which needed them. This is an important point. You will learn something more quickly, and remember it more easily, if you’ve got a use for it. 

The Am chord uses A C E and A’. The Am pentatonic is A C D E G A’. I realised that by adding a few more notes I could get an Am scales: A B C D E F G A’. This was much more useful than the pentatonic. 

Then I realised that if I added one or more of those notes to my Am chord a could get chords with fancy names. G gives Am7. Adding B gives Am9.

Then I realised that there is more than one Am scale. It started when a melody I was learning needed F# rather than F. At this point I stopped trying to learn things from a theoretical point of view, and treated each note as bringing a particular sound.

The process so far had taken about three weeks, which at 15 years old seemed to be a long time. Then I came across the 12 bar blues, and CAGED came into its own. I knew that I could use the notes of the Am scale to solo around the Am chord. I worked out where the notes of the E and A major scales fell around their respective chord shapes. After that it didn’t matter what the key was because I could look at the barred chord shape and know where the notes lay. 

I didn’t get around to learning the major pentatonic for decades.

Tannin

Radical view here, which will doubtless get shouted down. Forget the major pentatonic, and the minor pentatonic. After more than 50 years of playing I STILL cannot understand the point of using a bastardised version of the major (or minor) scale with some of the nicest notes left out. (And having to remember which ones you aren't supposed to play!)

Just know what key you are in and play in that key. If you are in D major, play any notes you fancy from the D major scale. Add some others as you see fit and - as @Plectrum says above, know where your main chord tones are. 

Or (even better in my book) just know what chord you are playing over, know where the root is, and from there your fingers will soon work out how to find the 5th, the 3rd, the minor 3rd, the 7th, and so on. You don't even have to know what notes you are playing, nor what key you are in, so long as you know that the current chord is (for example) a C# minor. You know where to find a C#, and from there you know where to find the other chord tones. 

From there the next step is to know what chord is coming next, and (with practice) how to play something which leads naturally to it. 

Last point: the worst thing you can do is listen to everybody all at the same time! Pick a point of view and a method and, at least for the time being, stick to it until you are ready to try something different. Trying to learn too many different things at once just slows you down. 

viz

Tannin said:

Radical view here, which will doubtless get shouted down. Forget the major pentatonic, and the minor pentatonic. After more than 50 years of playing I STILL cannot understand the point of using a bastardised version of the major (or minor) scale with some of the nicest notes left out. (And having to remember which ones you aren't supposed to play!)

Just know what key you are in and play in that key. If you are in D major, play any notes you fancy from the D major scale. Add some others as you see fit and - as @Plectrum says above, know where your main chord tones are. 

Or (even better in my book) just know what chord you are playing over, know where the root is, and from there your fingers will soon work out how to find the 5th, the 3rd, the minor 3rd, the 7th, and so on. You don't even have to know what notes you are playing, nor what key you are in, so long as you know that the current chord is (for example) a C# minor. You know where to find a C#, and from there you know where to find the other chord tones. 

From there the next step is to know what chord is coming next, and (with practice) how to play something which leads naturally to it. 

Last point: the worst thing you can do is listen to everybody all at the same time! Pick a point of view and a method and, at least for the time being, stick to it until you are ready to try something different. Trying to learn too many different things at once just slows you down. 

Allow me to be your first shouter-downer, although I actually heartily agree with you about the richness of music when you have all the access to all the notes; but I think pentatonic is a very easy thing to snap to as it’s so flexible across all 3 major and minor modes. That’s why it’s so ubiquitous. 

Desert Island Discs theme. Is it Ionion, Lydian or Mixolydian? Doesn’t matter. 

But yes. Back to my original statement. Learn to access all the notes. Not just five. Not even just seven. There are 12, plus bends. Juicy music uses more than five. 

So I agree

Tannin

A laugh for agreeing and disagreeing in the same breath. A neat trick sir!

Telecopter

Sometimes the easiest approach is to learn to play the melody of the song. Or a string or horn part that is melodic. These will often get to to useful places

topdog91

Greenman13 said:

I am in the process of learning CAGED and how the major pentatonic fits over it. My problem is that I am struggling to understand the major pentatonic as, up until now I have learnt the minor pentatonic shapes. I know they are the same shapes just with the roots in different places but for some reason this is confusing me.

Perhaps it's worth analysing why you find it "confusing".

It sounds like you're learning shapes rather than notes. Do you know all the notes on the fretboard and can you play any major scale from any position?

digitalkettle

Tannin said:

A laugh for agreeing and disagreeing in the same breath. A neat trick sir!

A good soloing approach

CaseOfAce

Mention major pentatonics to me and I inevitably reach straight for the G CAGED / first position minor pentatonic shunted down the neck 3 frets shape with that cliched 2 to major 3rd bend while playing the 5th or octave above. Instant Stones, country.

OR to put it more succinctly the solo from Joan Jett's (or The Arrows!!) I Love Rock and Roll. It's a good way to get an idea of the sound of using it.

Taking it a step further I reference CAGED all over the neck with their interlocking major pentatonics changing for each chord change and yee hah you're into Albert Lee territory which I still haven't fully mastered...

i also find pentatonic 5 note scales are all well and good - but it's all the extra notes and phrasing you can add around them that add spice and flavour.

sev112

i don't get the major minor thing? Arent we just talking about the Ionic and Aeolian pentatonics - they are all the same notes?  Just with  different starting note, so why do people concentrate on just the major or minor pentatonic?
ie you can use the 
G A B D E (Ionic or Major)
ABDEG
BDEGA
DEGAB
E G A B D  (Aeolian or Minor)

Roland

sev112 said: … why do people concentrate on just the major or minor pentatonic?

How many answers do you want?
1. Because that’s what guitar teachers teach.
2. Because that’s an easy two fingered way of playing.
3. Because that’s all the notes you need for some solos, maybe with a few slides and bends.
4. Because they don’t have the confidence or will to learn more.
5. Because their ears don’t recognise closer intervals. (I have met people like this)

digitalkettle

Roland said:

sev112 said: … why do people concentrate on just the major or minor pentatonic?

How many answers do you want?
1. Because that’s what guitar teachers teach.
2. Because that’s an easy two fingered way of playing.
3. Because that’s all the notes you need for some solos, maybe with a few slides and bends.
4. Because they don’t have the confidence or will to learn more.
5. Because their ears don’t recognise closer intervals. (I have met people like this)

6. Because it's deeply engrained in your human beingness

CaseOfAce

digitalkettle said:

Roland said:

sev112 said: … why do people concentrate on just the major or minor pentatonic?

How many answers do you want?
1. Because that’s what guitar teachers teach.
2. Because that’s an easy two fingered way of playing.
3. Because that’s all the notes you need for some solos, maybe with a few slides and bends.
4. Because they don’t have the confidence or will to learn more.
5. Because their ears don’t recognise closer intervals. (I have met people like this)

6. Because it's deeply engrained in your human beingness

7. Because it's what Jimi / Jimmy played.

willo

Greenman13 said:

I am in the process of learning CAGED and how the major pentatonic fits over it. My problem is that I am struggling to understand the major pentatonic as, up until now I have learnt the minor pentatonic shapes. I know they are the same shapes just with the roots in different places but for some reason this is confusing me. Also there isn't a lot of major pentatonic licks on the likes of YouTube etc whilst there is loads of them for the minor pentatonic scale. I'm curious to understand how everyone else learnt how to make music with CAGED and the best ways of practicing it. Should I jump straight into learning CAGED for minor pentatonic or master the major first. Any tips or links to lessons would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

I've been learning this through Pickup Music's course and finding it good so far.

The way they teach it is to:

1. Visualise the shape
2. Identify the root notes
3. Identify the chord tones
4. Build the major pentatonic on top of it
5. Learn licks from within the major pentatonic
6. Learn a new shape
7. In string pairs, explore ways to link the adjoining shapes

I am now at the third grade where they teach how to play over the changes. Each grade is intended to be one week long. 

It's a good course and actually working for me after years of false starts. They have a 30 day free trial which I would recommend, given that you are interested in CAGED and their course is well reviewed. 

kelpbeds

Blatant plug! I've got a super comprehensive, two part course out on CAGED if anyone is interested.
If you add 'fretboard20' you'll get a 20% discount of all products.

https://www.timdaleyguitar.co.uk/collections/guitar-courses

viz

kelpbeds said:

Blatant plug! I've got a super comprehensive, two part course out on CAGED if anyone is interested.
If you add 'fretboard20' you'll get a 20% discount of all products.

https://www.timdaleyguitar.co.uk/collections/guitar-courses

What about if we add 'fretboard100'?

JonnieMelancholy

Greenman13 said:

I am in the process of learning CAGED and how the major pentatonic fits over it. My problem is that I am struggling to understand the major pentatonic as, up until now I have learnt the minor pentatonic shapes. I know they are the same shapes just with the roots in different places but for some reason this is confusing me. Also there isn't a lot of major pentatonic licks on the likes of YouTube etc whilst there is loads of them for the minor pentatonic scale. I'm curious to understand how everyone else learnt how to make music with CAGED and the best ways of practicing it. Should I jump straight into learning CAGED for minor pentatonic or master the major first. Any tips or links to lessons would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

I guess it partly depends on what sort(s) of music you want to play. Rock and a lot of blues styles sees the minor pentatonic and the root of many riffs, licks and solos but I think of CAGED as helping me figure out chord shapes up the neck. Country and some blues as the major pentatonic plus some other notes. 

Who are your guitar inspirations?

mrkb

I see CAGED by looking at the root notes of the chord shapes

C shape is root note on 5th string going down the fretboard - which is shared with the A shape

A shape is root note on 5th string going up the fretboard -
    A also has a root note on the 3rd string which is shared with the G shape

G shape is root note on 6th string going down the fretboard

E shape is root note on 6th string going up the fretboard
   E also has a root note on the 4th string which is shared with the D shape

D also has a root note on the 2nd string which is shared with the C shape

kelpbeds

viz said:

kelpbeds said:

Blatant plug! I've got a super comprehensive, two part course out on CAGED if anyone is interested.
If you add 'fretboard20' you'll get a 20% discount of all products.

https://www.timdaleyguitar.co.uk/collections/guitar-courses

What about if we add 'fretboard100'?

Seeing as I appreciate the humour I've just setup a fretboard100 discount. The first person to use it will indeed get 100% off the product. It's setup for one time only so only one person can get it and only applies to the product 'CAGED Decoded Part One'

 Let's see who is fastest!

viz

^ nice one! Good luck folks!