Question about CAGED and the Major Pentatonic

JonnyBgoode

Litterick said:

Everybody says Keith Allen invented it. Who am I to disagree?

Here are Bill's handwritten notes, note the copyright date (1963):
https://www.scribd.com/document/27184271/CAGED-Jazz-Guitar-Scales-01-05-of

joeW

Anyone else use minor patterns as a fretboard map?   I read Pat Martino’s Linear Expressions and that’s how I approach it.  Basically make subs for all chords to minor and honk away - so if I see Cmaj I’ll play Aminor or g7 I’ll play Abminor for spice or Dmin for a more diatonic sound.  

Litterick

JonnyBgoode said:

Litterick said:

Everybody says Keith Allen invented it. Who am I to disagree?

Here are Bill's handwritten notes, note the copyright date (1963):
https://www.scribd.com/document/27184271/CAGED-Jazz-Guitar-Scales-01-05-of

And 1976. It doesn't really matter.

TimmyO

Litterick said:

 I would like to know what those who play CAGED exclusively understand. 

I think you’re imagining that that’s a group that exists, but I don’t think it does.

Using the driving GPS analogy, it’s like assuming there are people who only drive GPS, and wondering if they can find their way anywhere if it was switched off. 

The act of driving around following GPS also entails being immersed in a 3D world and (without deliberately trying to) also internalising that some roads go in certain directions or connect to other places. 

It’s the same playing an instrument and hearing music. 

Regardless of any conscious route to understanding or navigating you might take, it’s all but impossible to not also develop a less conscious grasp of playing. imo.

jeromegreenday

I can help explain!

I learnt the CAGED system last year, good at finding chords and ever so important at moveable chord shapes - glad I learnt it.

Now major pentatonics. If you start any scale on the fretboard. So 5th fret low E - A. Move 3 frets down and F# is the relative minor of A. This works anywhere on the neck, 3 frets down from any root note will be the relative minor.
So an A minor pentatonic is:
  E|--8--5

B|--8--5

G|--7--5

D|--7--5

A|--7--5

E|--8--5

Play 3 frets down and play the same minor pentatonic shape on F# 
  E|--5--2

B|--5--2

G|--4--2

D|--4--2

A|--4--2

E|--5--2

This is the F# minor pentatonic and also the A major pentatonic. The scales contain exactly the same notes, so play any minor pentatonic, 3 frets down, is its major equivalent. If you want to play an A major pentatonic, Maybe use it as a mode? Miss the F# which sounds minor and bluesy and start on the 2nd note which sounds happy so think of it as the dorian mode of the pentatonic scale? I hope that helps!

Litterick

TimmyO said:

Litterick said:

 I would like to know what those who play CAGED exclusively understand. 

I think you’re imagining that that’s a group that exists, but I don’t think it does.

Using the driving GPS analogy, it’s like assuming there are people who only drive GPS, and wondering if they can find their way anywhere if it was switched off. 

The act of driving around following GPS also entails being immersed in a 3D world and (without deliberately trying to) also internalising that some roads go in certain directions or connect to other places. 

It’s the same playing an instrument and hearing music. 

Regardless of any conscious route to understanding or navigating you might take, it’s all but impossible to not also develop a less conscious grasp of playing. imo.

The GPS analogy is not helpful, because GPS is a guide, while CAGED is a method. I think it quite possible that musicians who use a particular method might be unaware of other methods, or other ways of approaching music.

sev112

CAGED isn't a method?!

It is just frequencies and frets and  way of looking at them 

To me it's like the London Underground map,and doing some colours to certain stations which can be linked together 

TimmyO

Litterick said:

TimmyO said:

Litterick said:

 I would like to know what those who play CAGED exclusively understand. 

I think you’re imagining that that’s a group that exists, but I don’t think it does.

Using the driving GPS analogy, it’s like assuming there are people who only drive GPS, and wondering if they can find their way anywhere if it was switched off. 

The act of driving around following GPS also entails being immersed in a 3D world and (without deliberately trying to) also internalising that some roads go in certain directions or connect to other places. 

It’s the same playing an instrument and hearing music. 

Regardless of any conscious route to understanding or navigating you might take, it’s all but impossible to not also develop a less conscious grasp of playing. imo.

The GPS analogy is not helpful, because GPS is a guide, while CAGED is a method. I think it quite possible that musicians who use a particular method might be unaware of other methods, or other ways of approaching music.

I think that you think about this so differently to me that it might be hard to discuss it. As it goes, I think you might be thinking about it quite differently than most other people too. 

I’ve never studied or even looked in to the whole ’3 notes per string’ approach that I know is a thing and that some people work on and incorporate in to their playing. 

Ditto a purely intervals approach. 

But there’s plenty of times it’s been obvious in the moment that I’ve needed (or wanted, or benefited from, whatever words fit best) to play 3 notes in a row on one string, or play a final note that’s a certain relationship to the one before. 

Surely ‘methods’ are something that aid learning, or discussion - and that it ends up as part of stuff you know or can access as and when. 

*edit- just to be clear, I’m a terrible player and musician and admire anyone who has done the hard work with any approach. I’m just finding this way of talking about it hard to understand. 

digitalkettle

jeromegreenday said:

...
This is the F# minor pentatonic and also the A major pentatonic. The scales contain exactly the same notes, so play any minor pentatonic, 3 frets down, is its major equivalent. If you want to play an A major pentatonic, Maybe use it as a mode? Miss the F# which sounds minor and bluesy and start on the 2nd note which sounds happy so think of it as the dorian mode of the pentatonic scale? I hope that helps!

You're really just highlighting the relative scales of A major and F# minor...nothing wrong with that.

Modal thinking is not relevant here; dorian means a scale with this precise structure: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7. However, I get that you're trying to say 'emphasise the second note of your F#m shape': the A note.
Subjective as it is, this second note, rather than being 'happy', is your root...it's neutral. In the context of A major, the F# note is a major sixth: this is not minor or bluesy...it's considered warm/sweet...and you also don't need to avoid it: it's all about context and approach.

JonnyBgoode

TimmyO said:

Litterick said:

I think that you think about this so differently to me that it might be hard to discuss it. As it goes, I think you might be thinking about it quite differently than most other people too. 

He is, and that's the problem. I tried my best to explain it in detail with examples, but then get schooled by someone who by their own admission doesn't really get it 

Litterick

JonnyBgoode said:

TimmyO said:

Litterick said:

I think that you think about this so differently to me that it might be hard to discuss it. As it goes, I think you might be thinking about it quite differently than most other people too. 

He is, and that's the problem. I tried my best to explain it in detail with examples, but then get schooled by someone who by their own admission doesn't really get it 

No, you wanted an argument and I did not.

Litterick

TimmyO said:

Litterick said:

TimmyO said:

Litterick said:

 I would like to know what those who play CAGED exclusively understand. 

I think you’re imagining that that’s a group that exists, but I don’t think it does.

Using the driving GPS analogy, it’s like assuming there are people who only drive GPS, and wondering if they can find their way anywhere if it was switched off. 

The act of driving around following GPS also entails being immersed in a 3D world and (without deliberately trying to) also internalising that some roads go in certain directions or connect to other places. 

It’s the same playing an instrument and hearing music. 

Regardless of any conscious route to understanding or navigating you might take, it’s all but impossible to not also develop a less conscious grasp of playing. imo.

The GPS analogy is not helpful, because GPS is a guide, while CAGED is a method. I think it quite possible that musicians who use a particular method might be unaware of other methods, or other ways of approaching music.

I think that you think about this so differently to me that it might be hard to discuss it. As it goes, I think you might be thinking about it quite differently than most other people too. 

Thank you. I like to think about things differently to other people.

Littlejonny

One thing I'm not sure anyone has mentioned - although if pushed, I can visualise and play the shapes, when I'm soloing in this kind of static scale, I'm generally just going 'doodley doodle doo' in my head and kind of singing through the guitar. I find the most useful thing to do is to try and 'sing' melodies through the guitar in this way. 

Up and down on string helps too. Exploring the relationship between distance and pitch.

Dominic

I naturally refer to CAGED chord shapes all the time ......great for partial/stab chords or different voicings .
I have never practiced CAGED scales because playing out of the shapes comes so naturally ......you can see the scale from the chord shapes ........it's a great method to break them up to build solos /riffs

Ridley

Maybe listen to Brain Kelly's take on common misconceptions with CAGED>

stratman3142

That last video is interesting because I think a lot of confusion arises from people having different ideas of what 'the CAGED system'  is.

These days I try to avoid saying I use 'THE CAGED system' to avoid being dragged into what the CAGED system is or isn't. I prefer to say I use a 'CAGED based' approach, because there's a bunch of other stuff going on as well.

stratman3142

Sorry this is a bit of a long post. I felt the need to get this off my chest.

I had a look at what David Mead said about CAGED in his book "Chords & Scales For Guitarists".

He refers to it as the 'CAGED Idea'. Which neatly avoids getting bogged down in someone elses notion of what the "CAGED System" is or isn't. 

The following words (extracted from David Mead's introduction to the chapter on 'The CAGED Idea') convey things well.
"Now we're going to tie scale and chords shapes together. This is really more a lesson in visualisation. The great jazz guitarist Tal Farlow once told me that you've got to use your eyes and learn to see the scale shapes spread over the neck. It's a question of orienteering....This kind of thing becomes instinctive: you stop thinking in terms of shapes and positions; you hear melodies in your head and you fingers know where to find them. Or, at least, that's the idea."

I think I may have read the Keith Allen in article in Guitar Player. I'm pretty certain I became aware of CAGED sometime in the 1970's. But by that time I'd been playing 6 years. I thought it was an interesting idea, but not something to be learned by rote.

I prefer to think of CAGED as an extensible system or open architecture. In effect a basic framework to build on. Also, one can form associations with other visualisation systems such as thinking in intervals, 3NPs etc.  I've heard other guitarists describe things in similar terms (maybe using slightly different words), so this is nothing new and may seem very familiar to many. 

I've attempted to write down how I think about things. Which will probably confuse the hell out of everyone. But it makes sense to me

Level 1: Root Note (Octave) Patterns

At the highest level I see root note (octave) patterns. If the root pattern looks like it does in an open C chord then I call that my "C" root note pattern. The same follows for the other open chord shapes of A, G, E and D.

Level 2: Pentatonic Patterns

I suppose the next level of detail could be triads, but I jump straight to seeing pentatonic patterns. Triads are just subsets of pentatonics anyway. And those extra pentatonic notes are useful to add Hendrix like frills to the basic triads.

So I can build a major pentatonic pattern around the C root note pattern, which gives an instant snapshot of the R, 2, 3, 5, 6 intervals. I can also build a minor pentatonic pattern around the same C root note pattern, which gives me an instant snapshot of the R, b3, 4, 5, b7 intervals, in the same area. I can even see them overlaid on top of each other (useful for blues/jazz soloing), which gives me a snapshot of the intervals R, 2, b3, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7.

The same goes for the A, G, E and D patterns. I can map out the entire neck in five major pentatonic patterns and five minor pentatonic framework patterns.

Ultimately I what to see and hear intervals, and the major and minor pentatonics help to break things up into manageable chunks. I know that Jack Gardiner and Tom Quayle are proponents of visualising intervals. Essentially I'm using my CAGED major or minor pentatonic frameworks as a means of seeing a manageable chunks of intervals at the same time.

Level 3: Scales and Modes

I can add extra notes to my pentatonic frameworks to create other scales. Or tweak the shape a bit. For example, the Aeolian mode is just the minor pentatonic with an added 2 and b6. Then the Harmonic minor is like to Aeolian mode, but with a major 7.  

Chords:

It's easy to see the chords within the interval patterns and classify them based on the root note patterns. So they can be described as being based on the C, A, G, E or D shapes. This also helps to form a connection between scales and chords.

3 (or more notes) per string: 

The pentatonic framework patterns are contiguous, Notes can be added to the framework pentatonic patterns to construct 3 (or more) notes per string and viewed as just spanning two adjacent regions.

So, to reiterate, this is not necessarily "the CAGED System", to avoid annoying the "CAGED System" police. It's more about taking the CAGED idea and adapting it. Others may adapt it differently.

roberty

I think maybe OP question has not been answered directly

Major pentatonic and minor pentatonic are the same scale patterns, but major pentatonic starts on the second degree of the minor pentatonic scale

This means you can play major pentatonic in any key by moving three frets down and playing minor pentatonic

You have to stress different notes in the scale to make it sound good but the patterns are the same

Now you can learn CAGED if that's what you want to do @Greenman13 ;

stratman3142

roberty said:

I think maybe OP question has not been answered directly...

Fair point. I got a bit carried away

Although I know that the major pentatonic can be thought of as shifting the minor pentatonic down three frets and I have explained it to some that way, so that they can get an idea of the sound of it.

However, instead of a position shift, I prefer to think of it as choosing a different note in the pattern as the root note. That facilitates seeing a major pentatonic or a minor pentatonic as centred on the same root notes. So I can see a C root note (octave) pattern for example, and then construct either a major or a minor pentatonic in the same place. Or overlay them to create a combined scale which is useful for a jazzy/blues sound.
 

viz

I think the first thing to do is recognise C major penta as being 123568 (CDEGAC) and C minor penta as being 1 b3 4 5 b7 8 (C Eb F G Bb C). 

Get used to those musical sounds and play songs and noodles in them. 

THEN realise that C major is the relative of A minor. Both scales use the same notes on a piano - all the white notes. And C major penta has the same notes as A minor penta.

THEN realise that ALL the modes are related. C major. D dorian. E phrygian. F lydian. G Mixolydian. A aeolian. B locrian.