Are lessons the answer (improving technique)?

Brownster74

I'll try to keep this shortish.  Any advice from anyone who's been in a similar position would be much appreciated.  

First off - I am learning/playing just for fun (bedroom guitarist - for my ears only- no interest in performing for anyone else

JAYJO

If you can afford lessons then i would say take them. 

blobb

Practice, practice, practice.

BillDL

It all depends on what "level" you are at and how well you are able to self-assess any of the deficiencies in your knowledge and technique that seem to be holding you back from being able to play certain things you might like to be able to play.  When I say "level" I know that sounds like a competitive expression and I acknowledge what you are saying about "for your ears only" and having little or no ambition to play for anybody else, but there are often some very basic fundamentals you can miss out on at a reasonably early stage of your learning that can inhibit your development as time goes on. A tutor can pick up on these and offer advice.

I would consider myself to be quite a good guitar player, but I have an awful lot of deficiencies from having been self-taught, and also from not having sustained my playing and practice with any consistency through the decades.  There were some periods where I hardly played the guitar for a number of years, and each time I picked one up I just ended up playing the same old licks.  A lot of people talk about being self-taught.  There's a big difference between learning to play with no direction from anybody else and only listening to the radio, tapes, records or CDs and learning from somebody's tablature or instructional audio of video resources, despite both really being "self teaching".  Back in the early to mid 80s I bought some Hot Licks cassette tapes with accompanying printed tablature, and this helped me to learn how to play a bunch of licks in a variety of styles, and it was then a case of playing along with music in those styles and developing my playing around those licks.  One of my failings has been not exposing myself to a much wider range of musical styles and trying to play in those styles.

YouTube is awash with all manner of instructional videos, but finding the good presenters that have a series of free videos that have a structured and chronoligically listed videos can be quite difficult.  One of the best ones I've seen for fairly early learners and a fair bit beyond is Justin Sandercoe  (His YouTube Channel) , but it's entirely possible that you may already know most of the technique he teaches.

What "level" would you say you have reached in terms of chord knowledge and being able to listen to a song, find the key, and know the chords in that key?

CaseOfAce

The trouble with guitar forums (!) is a) you have no idea of the skill level of the person asking for advice and b) the skill level of the person giving the advice (!).

There's a lot of preliminary stuff you can do that doesn't require you to start forking out £40 an hour for lessons (and I can hear the collective groans of tutors on this board who'd disagree with me).

Can you play open position chords (or even strum a chord?)
Can you then play along to some 3 chord songs on spotify?
Can you barre? an F chord?

if you can you are probably doing better than a few guitar "owners" I know.

Then again for all I know you might be capable of playing a note perfect rendition of the solo from Tornado of Souls   

Supportact

I think it's a very individual thing as to what suits you because different people learn in different ways. I've had regular lessons from a teacher (over Skype) for the last few years (after playing for  several years without lessons) and I've found it really beneficial. 

Partly I think because a good teacher will see things in the way you play that you can't see for yourself and give appropriate exercises or pieces which can really help. 

Jfingers

I've never had a lesson and also consider myself to be a quite good guitar player. I bought a few books years ago and copped a few moves from them though. My method was trial and error, a decent to play instrument without volume or pedals will help a lot.

A badly set up guitar is the worst investment you could make, if it's intonation is poor and it's painful to play then you won't persevere.

I'm in the practice for hours and then practice some more camp and you need a guitar that wants you to play it and you feel the same. It's almost like a cheesy love story.

A lot of my favourite players never had lessons, they just felt the need to work on their craft.

Inherent artistry works alongside that I think, playing someone else's music was never good enough to satisfy me.

No I can't play like (insert guitar hero of your choice) but I can play like me and people seem to like it.

Other opinions are available.

Brownster74

Well this is annoying.  I wrote quite a long post but it appears it didn't save and literally kept the fist four lines!

Appreciate the replies so far. 

For clarity  I'm 51  and picked up a guitar around 44/45, had 10 lessons with a tutor but didn't really enjoy them.  Since then I've just watched the 'learn to play  song x" YouTube videos.  Just learning shapes really.  No interest in theory. 

Sometimes I've had spells where I'd play 3-4 times a week, other times once a month. 

I can play open chords and several barre chords reasonably fluently.  Simple solos and chunks of lots of songs (80s rock) but nothing completely through at the correct pace with no mistakes. 

My technique is poor.  Struggle to mute out other notes at times. In terms of what I can play - I'd  probably be able to pick up most of a Trinity level 4-5 song reasonably quickly - if there was a video of it!

I've hit a stage where I'd really like to move up a level if possible. 

Just wondered if anyone else has trodden a similar path and whether having 1-1 would really benefit and also the value of courses such as Trinity.   

Brownster74

BillDL said:

It all depends on what "level" you are at and how well you are able to self-assess any of the deficiencies in your knowledge and technique that seem to be holding you back from being able to play certain things you might like to be able to play.  When I say "level" I know that sounds like a competitive expression and I acknowledge what you are saying about "for your ears only" and having little or no ambition to play for anybody else, but there are often some very basic fundamentals you can miss out on at a reasonably early stage of your learning that can inhibit your development as time goes on. A tutor can pick up on these and offer advice.

I would consider myself to be quite a good guitar player, but I have an awful lot of deficiencies from having been self-taught, and also from not having sustained my playing and practice with any consistency through the decades.  There were some periods where I hardly played the guitar for a number of years, and each time I picked one up I just ended up playing the same old licks.  A lot of people talk about being self-taught.  There's a big difference between learning to play with no direction from anybody else and only listening to the radio, tapes, records or CDs and learning from somebody's tablature or instructional audio of video resources, despite both really being "self teaching".  Back in the early to mid 80s I bought some Hot Licks cassette tapes with accompanying printed tablature, and this helped me to learn how to play a bunch of licks in a variety of styles, and it was then a case of playing along with music in those styles and developing my playing around those licks.  One of my failings has been not exposing myself to a much wider range of musical styles and trying to play in those styles.

YouTube is awash with all manner of instructional videos, but finding the good presenters that have a series of free videos that have a structured and chronoligically listed videos can be quite difficult.  One of the best ones I've seen for fairly early learners and a fair bit beyond is Justin Sandercoe  (His YouTube Channel) , but it's entirely possible that you may already know most of the technique he teaches.

What "level" would you say you have reached in terms of chord knowledge and being able to listen to a song, find the key, and know the chords in that key?

Thanks for the detailed reply.  The majority of my opening post disappeared annoyingly and only saved the first 4 lines. 
Been 'learning' on and off for about 7 years - purely as a down time bit of fun. 
I think similar to you, I have just learnt shapes and riffs from youtube videos.  
Never has the patience to learn any theory and couldn't tell you the notes/chord names after the open chords. 

I can play something like 'Is this Love'  by whitesnake about 90 percent accurately including a semi respectable bash at the solo. 

My technique is poor though and its this area I'd like to tighten up and learn some of the more complicated tapping techniques etc so I can actually complete a few songs fully accurately.  

CaseOfAce

Sounds like you're ready to join a band to me - there's simply no quicker route to getting better (especially if you didn't enjoy previous tutoring) - and it'll force you learn complete songs and get your timing together. Sink or swim.

I know you say you've no interest in performing for others but give it a try. Every time I step into rehearsal space it's a reality check as to what truly matters guitar wise for me after being on here! 

And continuing the noddy questions theme you can play standing up right? If you've only ever sat watching youtube vids whilst playing that can be an adjustment to get used to in terms of fretting hand positioning, strumming etc...

Brownster74

CaseOfAce said:

Sounds like you're ready to join a band to me - there's simply no quicker route to getting better (especially if you didn't enjoy previous tutoring) - and it'll force you learn complete songs and get your timing together. Sink or swim.

I know you say you've no interest in performing for others but give it a try. Every time I step into rehearsal space it's a reality check as to what truly matters guitar wise for me after being on here! 

And continuing the noddy questions theme you can play standing up right? If you've only ever sat watching youtube vids whilst playing that can be an adjustment to get used to in terms of fretting hand positioning, strumming etc...

I appreciate what you are saying and can see the logic of  it but I really don't have any interest/time to practise with others.  Even before considering a complete lack of confidence.

Re standing up.  You were right!  I've only ever played sitting down.  I have been thinking about practising standing though as my posture sucks sitting down so it might cut out sone aches and pains

Supportact

I think if you really do consider your technique to be 'poor' as things stand then booking some time with a good teacher in the genre you want to learn would be money well spent.  As part of that you should cover basic things like posture/playing position which can make a big difference.  It might be worth thinking about why things didn't work out with the previous teacher? (Personality clash? Wrong genre? Repertoire? Or maybe you actually just prefer another type of learning?)

BillDL

It's a pity you don't know one or more people in the area that play the guitar or are learning, because it's amazing how things can suddenly feel real and start fitting together when two guitars are playing together.  Even something relatively straightforward like the Everly Brothers Bye-Bye Love with each guitar playing the chords in different positions, or one playing muted chords on specific beats, or an acoustic and an electric.  It's an awful lot more satisfying than playing along to records or videos.  You've said "no" so we should respect that.

A looper pedal can be a great tool, and it's something to consider.  Not only is it a great tool for allowing you to listen to how badly timed your rhythm playing is (and it will be, as is mine quite often) when you are only following the beat in your head, but it will play endlessly and allow you to discover what notes fit and what ones don't when you're experimenting with embellishments, lead breaks and solos.  People might suggest using a metronome to improve your timing, but in many ways that can make things feel too clinical for some people.  You can "cheat" by recording your first loop while listening to a song through one side of a set of earphones and playing the rhythm, then dispense with the headphones and start building up your fuller loop with more rhythm parts, a "bass" part (neck pickup with tone rolled off), and then add some fills.  You can add "drums" by slapping the muted strings with your fingers.  Loopers are very useful tools for practice, learning and new discovery.

Playing songs all the way through is quite important in my opinion, otherwise you haven't really played the song.  Obviously that's a lot more important when you are going to be in a situation of playing with others, but keeping it going through to the end is a very useful way of building up stamina, maintaining the rhythmic feel, and experimenting with a change of feel during the song.

Lestratcaster

Yes. I'm a tutor and see players come in who can already play a bit, albeit 3 chords and 1 strumming pattern. Not much else.

Its always an eye-opener to them how much of the basic stuff they haven't learnt or don't know. In 6-12 months they go from the above to someone who has better timing and can hold a tune, and actually know what they're doing. In a few weeks they've learnt a song they've always wanted that would have probably taken them years on their own. I've saved a few years of frustration.

And yes playing in bands is very helpful. You have to play with others and really listen to the other instruments as opposed to just your guitar. Knowing song arrangements, and having the stamina to play for about 3-4 minutes (or even longer). My 15 years in rock bands really helped me improve.

octatonic

How disciplined are you?
How objective can you be?

Lessons help in most instances but if you are very disciplined and objective then you can figure it out yourself.

Brownster74

BillDL said:

It's a pity you don't know one or more people in the area that play the guitar or are learning, because it's amazing how things can suddenly feel real and start fitting together when two guitars are playing together.  Even something relatively straightforward like the Everly Brothers Bye-Bye Love with each guitar playing the chords in different positions, or one playing muted chords on specific beats, or an acoustic and an electric.  It's an awful lot more satisfying than playing along to records or videos.  You've said "no" so we should respect that.

A looper pedal can be a great tool, and it's something to consider.  Not only is it a great tool for allowing you to listen to how badly timed your rhythm playing is (and it will be, as is mine quite often) when you are only following the beat in your head, but it will play endlessly and allow you to discover what notes fit and what ones don't when you're experimenting with embellishments, lead breaks and solos.  People might suggest using a metronome to improve your timing, but in many ways that can make things feel too clinical for some people.  You can "cheat" by recording your first loop while listening to a song through one side of the earphones and playing the rhythm, then dispense with the headphones and start building up your fuller loop with more rhythm parts, a "bass" part (neck pickup with tone rolled off), and then add some fills.  You can add "drums" by slapping the muted strings with your fingers.  Loopers are very useful tools for practice, learning and new discovery.

Playing songs all the way through is quite important in my opinion, otherwise you haven't really played the song.  Obviously that's a lot more important when you are going to be in a situation of playing with others, but keeping it going through to the end is a very useful way of building up stamina, maintaining the rhythmic feel, and experimenting with a change of feel during the song.

Thanks again for the advice.  I picked up a helix lt a couple of years ago and never got round to using it.  That has a looper I believe. Definitely something I'll try going forward. 

Brownster74

Lestratcaster said:

Yes. I'm a tutor and see players come in who can already play a bit, albeit 3 chords and 1 strumming pattern. Not much else.

Its always an eye-opener to them how much of the basic stuff they haven't learnt or don't know. In 6-12 months they go from the above to someone who has better timing and can hold a tune, and actually know what they're doing. In a few weeks they've learnt a song they've always wanted that would have probably taken them years on their own. I've saved a few years of frustration.

And yes playing in bands is very helpful. You have to play with others and really listen to the other instruments as opposed to just your guitar. Knowing song arrangements, and having the stamina to play for about 3-4 minutes (or even longer). My 15 years in rock bands really helped me improve.

Thanks for your advice - This is kind of my thinking. I will have a ton of gaps but may be more  competent in other areas.  If I can iron out the flaws and pick up a few things over 6/12  months, it should make the whole thing more enjoyable. 
Another issue is time -  I teach KS2 and have 2 teenage girls who use dad's taxi a lot. To progress, should lessons be every week or can you make the progress having them say every 3 weeks - providing the practise is being done in evenings etc? 

Brownster74

octatonic said:

How disciplined are you?
How objective can you be?

Lessons help in most instances but if you are very disciplined and objective then you can figure it out yourself.

No discipline whatsoever

Lestratcaster

Brownster74 said:

Lestratcaster said:

Yes. I'm a tutor and see players come in who can already play a bit, albeit 3 chords and 1 strumming pattern. Not much else.

Its always an eye-opener to them how much of the basic stuff they haven't learnt or don't know. In 6-12 months they go from the above to someone who has better timing and can hold a tune, and actually know what they're doing. In a few weeks they've learnt a song they've always wanted that would have probably taken them years on their own. I've saved a few years of frustration.

And yes playing in bands is very helpful. You have to play with others and really listen to the other instruments as opposed to just your guitar. Knowing song arrangements, and having the stamina to play for about 3-4 minutes (or even longer). My 15 years in rock bands really helped me improve.

Thanks for your advice - This is kind of my thinking. I will have a ton of gaps but may be more  competent in other areas.  If I can iron out the flaws and pick up a few things over 6/12  months, it should make the whole thing more enjoyable. 
Another issue is time -  I teach KS2 and have 2 teenage girls who use dad's taxi a lot. To progress, should lessons be every week or can you make the progress having them say every 3 weeks - providing the practise is being done in evenings etc? 

Most of the gaps in knowledge are rhythm - subdivisions, counting the beat etc. It makes up for 90-95% of guitar playing yet many just want to do the widdly widdly soloing. Don't forget to play solos they have to be in time and have some kind of groove!

All my learners do their lessons weekly. Nothing less. I find if the gap is too long between lessons there's an excuse to practice less and the interest and routine is lost. When I used to do fortnightly lessons it didn't work well and unsurprisingly all those learners have now quit due to lack of consistency. Also you can view the lesson time as a chance to get some feedback in real time on what you're practicing and for them to check you're doing it right as for all you know you could be practicing something incorrectly for hours and it gets hard to undo.

Rocker

I planned to say what @BillDL said above but he said it better than I could. This is one (the best) way of improving as a musician. 

joeW

I think true fire is still a great resource - 80 quid or so on discount for 12 months and loads of stuff to dig into.  has learning pathways so you can jump onto courses that are at your level and progress from there.   Gets pretty advanced on some of the courses too.  Same price as a few lessons and if nothing else might help you find your direction of travel.